What's the point of M ships?

[Warnoise]

S ships do their jobs but cheaper and better survivability.

[easternsun]

Eventually you system will lag out due to the map lag counting all the ships in screen and too many ai jobs looking for trades.

If L ships didn't take so long going through gates I whould use them more.

The vulture trader is my go to for supplying my shipyard and stations with a few larger ships for metal and wafers.

[lordmuck]

S ships do their jobs but cheaper and better survivability.

They have their uses tbh. Minotaur pillagers for example, getting a few early game bails and filling them with marines is quite a strong and viable option to get boarding.
If they fix drones and make them far easier to use, m drone carriers would be a strong option! Imagin drones to look after your ship while you are at a distance with a torpedo launcher taking out turrets from a distance or just a lot of damage.

However, I do understand your point too! and agree with the survivability, perhaps we can get the devs to think about some shield regen like L ships have or a big all-round buff to m shields

[GCU Grey Area]

Personally think it's fine they're flying coffins if you send them against capital ships or stations. It's just not a role they're good at.

They do however have other uses. They work well as player ships & are fine under AI control for hunting S/M ships & drones. If I'm flying an M myself I often like to have a few M gunships with me, just in case I run into a swarm of enemy fighters too big for me to take on by myself. They also make good deck guns for carriers.

However IMO it's not essential for every ship to be brilliant in every role. I'd prefer them to be left as they are currently, rather than trying to make them good capital ship killers too (I have other ships for that role already).

[mr.WHO]

Question is - were they ever useful outside player controlled ships?
I mean M-size traders are good, but M-size combat is in bad place - too expensive to be mass combatant and too weak to be stand alone.

It was like that ever since M6 class appeared in X2.


IMO as they are they would be good light patrol craft for anti-pirate duty, but in OOS combat it would be sooner or later when they stuck at random SCA destroyer or K that will smach them in single salvo.
They sux at IS combat as well - unless they are flak armed they are too slow in taking out fighters and are too big target for Larger ships.

I like Nemesis and Cerberus as personal ship and yet to try the Dragon, but they sux as AI ships badly.

[Toombstone]

I assign them for sector patrol and station subordinates for trader/miner escort ... other than that i prefer Chimera over a Nemesis. They are in a bad place.

[dholmstr]

A small boost in M shields regen and turrets would go along way for M ships.

[zakaluka]

A small boost in M shields regen and turrets would go along way for M ships.

You can make a wharf that will put teladi shield (best shield most regen) with argon turrets (highest damage fastest tracking) on split chassis (most hull)
Like you said - it goes a long way.

[Vertigo 7]

You can mod M ships to be amazing. Fully kitted out, can easily reach 11+km/s travel speed, maneuver just as well as an S class fighter with 4X the fire power and twice the speed, not to mention, they self repair.

[Imperial Good]

You can make a wharf that will put teladi shield (best shield most regen) with argon turrets (highest damage fastest tracking) on split chassis (most hull)
Like you said - it goes a long way.

Teladi have the second worst regen shields of all factions, being slightly above Split. The best regen shields are Paranid, which is why they are the second lowest capacity above Split. One usually wants Paranid shields on M, L and XL ships since they will regenerate faster. With S fighters both Teladi and Paranid shields are viable choices, with Paranid shields offering them quicker shield recovery (10.2 seconds vs 13.9) while Teladi ones give them extra toughness so shields depleting entirely is less likely.

Argon M turrets have the same damage as all other non-DLC faction turrets. This is because they all share the same bullet macros. The reason one goes Argon M turrets is purely because they have the best rotation in the game. The exception is Split M Flak turret which has a different bullet macro from Argon M Flak Turret so potentially deals more damage, if it ever hits anything.

With L turrets both Argon and Paranid are good choices. Argon L turrets rotate and shoot faster so potentially are more accurate against fast moving targets. Paranid L turrets deal slightly more damage, have slightly more range, have faster heavier hitting projectiles but rotate and fire slowly. Split L turrets technically have the best DPS by some small amount with moderate rotation, but have the shortest range by a significant amount. Teladi turrets shoot the fastest but deal the least damage, hence Argon can be considered better in every meaningful way.

You can mod M ships to be amazing. Fully kitted out, can easily reach 11+km/s travel speed, maneuver just as well as an S class fighter with 4X the fire power and twice the speed, not to mention, they self repair.

Dragon Raider with perfect mods (stupid RNG...) could likely hit 1,400 m/s flight speed. As long as one does not keep flying straight it is unlikely anything at a reasonable range can hit it. Using one of these ships I danced around a Branch 9 I like it was nothing, despite dozens of deadly red blobs flying around me.

[Warnoise]

You can mod M ships to be amazing. Fully kitted out, can easily reach 11+km/s travel speed, maneuver just as well as an S class fighter with 4X the fire power and twice the speed, not to mention, they self repair.

I wish mods can be equipped to AI like weapons and stuff. Player has to research them (not via buying blueprint but more through quests and other things like killing capitals/stations and stuff) then can equip them. Meanwhile AI factions will build some sort of elite units heavily protected equipped with high end mods.


Come on Egosoft, you should do this for 4.0 for extra epicness.


As about the M ships, they need more tankiness. Especially the slow and bulky ones like the Osprey. Currently those things are just a waste of money since they die in every fight. An osprey for example should be almost as tanky as an L destroyer.

In addition, now S ships are way too useful. They can play any role way too effectively. Even their AI is better than M ships.

S ships shouldnt be able to use MK2 torps imo.

[Cabrelbeuk]

Well there is a few M (AI controlled) i find usefull.

I like gunships as Minotaures to clear fighters around my Carrier. They are awful for anything else but they are good at clearing them with proper flak canons as well as drawing fire away.

I use fregates as Cerberus or Cobra as patrol ships or fast support ships when destroyer and carrier are too far and you need fast intervention. In war it is never the first wave but it can come handy.

Those are pretty specific niche tho, and i am very underwhelmed by corvette ships such as nemesis or cobra. They are fast but they job as bomber are ruined by the fact that they are directly countered by the target they are supposed to be efficient against : destroyer or station.
I don't see the point of buying 4 Nemesis when one destroyer do the job better for the same price and doesn't die in the process.


I do like the M mining ships and freighters.

[leoriq]

Teladi have the second worst regen shields of all factions, being slightly above Split. The best regen shields are Paranid, which is why they are the second lowest capacity above Split. One usually wants Paranid shields on M, L and XL ships since they will regenerate faster.

Shield regen value matters only if you can keep average damage received lower than regen speed. Otherwise you still have to break off combat for prolonged periods to regen. Given that Paranid regen speed is just 10% bigger, it's almost impossible to catch that "average damage received" window.
I say - use Teladi shields. Their 20% raw bonus means 20% more time in combat.


And Argon turrets are simply the best IS - any turret is dealing precisely zero damage while it isn't pointed to the enemy, so 30% faster rotation of Argon turrets is huge.
While bullet speed and range are important too, AI prediction failures - it often underestimates the target's speed - make the rotation speed the most valuable parameter.

Those are pretty specific niche tho, and i am very underwhelmed by corvette ships such as nemesis or cobra. They are fast but they job as bomber are ruined by the fact that they are directly countered by the target they are supposed to be efficient against : destroyer or station.

I'm sure you have meant Dragon, not Cobra. Anyway, corvettes aren't supposed to be used against larger targets, that's the job for swarm of S. Corvettes were supposed to be just the player's ship, because pre-SV there was just one corvette - Nemesis.
By the way, in regard to shields - 70% Exceptional Shield Mod makes Chimera a better player's ship than any corvette - recharge speed is incredible, so with boom&zoom tactics the shield becomes endless. And it has 5 guns, so the damage output is just half of Nemesis. Therefore in a fight against large swarm of 10+ xenons Chimera kills them faster - downtime for weapon cooling is less than downtime for Corvette shield recharge.

And in regard to gunboats: IRL they were just the cheap ships to whack aborigine that had no means to fight back. And warplanes made gunboats obsolete.
Therefore in X4 they have the single use - to attack larger targets with torpedoes from afar, and if they can't stay out of enemy fire, they die.
If AI could keep the safe distance, they would be more useful.

And that suicidal AI behaviour is the real culprit of X fights, because replacing a ship is tedious process. However, as soon as you can churn out a hundred fighters with a couple of mouse clicks, the table is turned: you don't need bigger ships anymore, just unleash the swarm. Ten Ares (is there a plural for that?) deal more than twice the damage of single Odyssey, for roughly the same price.

[GCU Grey Area]

Dragon Raider with perfect mods (stupid RNG...) could likely hit 1,400 m/s flight speed. As long as one does not keep flying straight it is unlikely anything at a reasonable range can hit it. Using one of these ships I danced around a Branch 9 I like it was nothing, despite dozens of deadly red blobs flying around me.

Was trying a Dragon Raider out just last night. Wonderful ship for it's flight characteristics, really does not feel like an M. Hull though was an issue, felt like it had all the resilience of the tin foil they used on Apollo lunar landers. Perhaps the most useful thing about the ship was it enabled me to liberate a ZYA colonial police Dragon with a fancy mk4 engine (can't get them any other way). After I was done tinkering with it (Lubricator chassis + Slingshot engine mods) it's almost as fast but I'm far less worried about the hull. Handling though does feel much more sluggish after flying the Raider.

[mr.WHO]

Is there any reason to use Dragon Raider instead of normal Dragon?
Raider seems inferior version.

Minotaur Raider is at least better at boarding action than normal Minotaur.

[GCU Grey Area]

Is there any reason to use Dragon Raider instead of normal Dragon?
Raider seems inferior version.

Think it's supposed to be. It's the FRF version - many of their ships aren't quite as good as those available from ZYA (e.g. Asp Raider v Asp, Balaur v Chimera). Due to the way it handles it's still a fun ship to fly & ludicrously fast. Certainly going to keep mine, even if I'm now flying my ex-ZYA Dragon. Filled the Raider full of satellites (it can hold 100), planning to use it for sector mapping. Even if the hull is a bit thin it's still exceptionally well armed - should have no problems whatsoever dealing with the small groups of S ships which tend to lurk on the fringes. Not crazy enough though to take it anywhere near a proper battle.

[Imperial Good]

Perhaps the most useful thing about the ship was it enabled me to liberate a ZYA colonial police Dragon with a fancy mk4 engine (can't get them any other way).

You can buy the blueprints and upgrade them onto ships at ZYA facilities. If you play a start that begins enemy with ZYA, such as Fires of Defeat, you can quite easily turn them neutral and eventually positive by killing criminal traffic at their stations. Negative reputation acts linearly with respect to kill reward unlike positive reputation so is much easier to go from -30 to 0 then it is to go from 0 to 20.

felt like it had all the resilience of the tin foil they used on Apollo lunar landers.

Which is fine given how little hits it due to that insane speed. In duels against other M ships it is just so agile the NPCs struggle to land anything on it. The only time it suffers is when fighting unfair fights such as soloing entire Xenon fighter wings, especially given how the Xenon love Pulse Laser like weapons so their fighters have fantastic accuracy. In such a case a ship like the Nemesis with 2 shield generators might be better, or even a Frigate of sorts with drones to distract.

Is there any reason to use Dragon Raider instead of normal Dragon?
Raider seems inferior version.

Similar to how for combat all Vanguard ships are better than Sentinels, speed. Dragon Raider is faster, hence better.

One should replace the shield generator with PAR M Shield Generator Mk2 for optimum regeneration. Also throw on it the balanced regeneration and capacity exceptional shield mod as that assures a good recharge and capacity boost.

I use Dragon Raider as my main go to fighter for all combat. As mentioned earlier the main issue with it is when fighting highly unfair battles. In such battles your shields are always being pinged and so the lack of shield really shows. One can compensate by throwing out some gunships or frigates into the fray along side you to act as distractions.

[mr.WHO]

Similar to how for combat all Vanguard ships are better than Sentinels, speed. Dragon Raider is faster, hence better.

One should replace the shield generator with PAR M Shield Generator Mk2 for optimum regeneration. Also throw on it the balanced regeneration and capacity exceptional shield mod as that assures a good recharge and capacity boost.

I use Dragon Raider as my main go to fighter for all combat. As mentioned earlier the main issue with it is when fighting highly unfair battles. In such battles your shields are always being pinged and so the lack of shield really shows. One can compensate by throwing out some gunships or frigates into the fray along side you to act as distractions.

Interesting - I mst say I was always Sentinel guy - armor and shields over speed and agility.
However seeing how crap turrets are against agile targets this might actually not be a bad idea - you don't need shield/armor if enemy can't hit you.

I think I must do some testing with vanguards and give Dragon a test ride (I've been sitting in Nemesis for far too long).

[GCU Grey Area]

You can buy the blueprints and upgrade them onto ships at ZYA facilities. If you play a start that begins enemy with ZYA, such as Fires of Defeat, you can quite easily turn them neutral and eventually positive by killing criminal traffic at their stations. Negative reputation acts linearly with respect to kill reward unlike positive reputation so is much easier to go from -30 to 0 then it is to go from 0 to 20.

I know, but then I'd have to stop stealing their ships & really don't like that idea in the slightest. Chose the Fires of Defeat start specifically because it gave me an additional enemy faction to shoot at, right from the start. Game would not be as much fun if I had positive rep with them, or as lucrative for that matter. Argons keep offering me huge piles of cash for hunting ZYA ships. Anyway, with a bit of perseverance (& a lot of mayhem) I can have as many of their fancy ships as I like. Chimeras are at the top of my list right now. Got a half empty Monitor & I intend to fill it.

[pref]

Sure it flies better then the normal dragon, and if you don't do heavy fights or just godlike at combat then hull won't matter that much. Also a bunch of good engineers have insane repair rates.

I think I must do some testing with vanguards and give Dragon a test ride (I've been sitting in Nemesis for far too long).

I was thinking if rattlesnake could be modded to a level where it would do well almost like an M playership.