War in the game, and why better war mechanics should make this game close to perfect

[Ryba]

Hi

I was thinking about this post for a long time. I'm not confident if I may write such a things (i'm not even close to game developing) but I'm 500+ hour player. I'm with you since Beyond The X Frontier so, let try:

War - War never changes. We all know that In some point every player in X universe will be part of it. War mechaincs in CoH is not bad comapred to oldest version. Why ? CoH gives you some extra possibilities to shape your universe and create new conflicts (or expand peace). It is good but...

But If we talk about wars - I have some ideas how to expand the game mechanics without messing too much with the game itslef (should be easy for Egosoft, as an extra update maybe, or even small DLC). This expansion should give many players another hundreds of hours of gameplay. When I think about expanding war mechanics I think about creating a chain mission coresponding to new conflicts that emmerges after player's decision in main storyline. Most important, druging wars, X4 should change not only faction relation, but also give us new war missions. By completing this chain mission, wars can be win or lost. Let's look at missions, that should give us a lot of fun and expand this game to be close to ideal. Let's say, that we decided to start a war between Terrans and Argons and we allied with Terrans:
1. Game should define what is the main goal to win the war. For example - recapture controll by Terrans over Argon Prime Capital (maaaany hours of great gameplay with purpose !). That should be the final "end-war" mission after which game could create some variable peace treaty possibilities and possibility to end war (and start another one if player is up to). Same for Argons - if they will retake Earth, war from Terran side is lost. We could reshape our univerces to ubelivable level with a lot of fun !
2. Side war missions - capturing the border systems, cutting off strategical enemy systems from their theritories (blockades of specified systems), creating blockades of specified jump gates, etc...

This game needs such a mechanics. I'm not expert but such a mechanic should be easy to do as it would based on basic input data, like what sector player own, which station has been destroyed, what sectors own enemies, who is our enemies, what are the relations between factions.


What do you think about it ?

[Karvat]

The game needs a diplomatic system that changes the relationships between fractions autonomously and dynamically, without putting the player always in the middle of the Universe.

[BlackRain]

The game needs a diplomatic system that changes the relationships between fractions autonomously and dynamically, without putting the player always in the middle of the Universe.

No it doesn't. Again, it doesn't make sense for every faction to be fighting. This is not a warring states period. The HOP and the PARANID are in a state of civil war with the Paranid allying with Argon/Antigone. The Split have just won a war and are weak, but can be eventually brought together in a few ways and make war on argon. Teladi are at war with no one. Terrans want to mess up the Xenon but have tensions with argon/antigone and can be brought to war with them. These wars all are part of the lore and make sense.

You want to turn that into a free for all but that is not logical. Use the dynamic wars mod if you want some kind of chaotic FFA. I understand you want a more fast paced and action packed game, but that is not entirely what X is.

Now, are there things that could be done to make the wars a bit more interesting? More interesting war goals, missions, etc.? Then I can get behind that.

[taztaz502]

The game needs a diplomatic system that changes the relationships between fractions autonomously and dynamically, without putting the player always in the middle of the Universe.

No it doesn't. Again, it doesn't make sense for every faction to be fighting. This is not a warring states period. The HOP and the PARANID are in a state of civil war with the Paranid allying with Argon/Antigone. The Split have just won a war and are weak, but can be eventually brought together in a few ways and make war on argon. Teladi are at war with no one. Terrans want to mess up the Xenon but have tensions with argon/antigone and can be brought to war with them. These wars all are part of the lore and make sense.

You want to turn that into a free for all but that is not logical. Use the dynamic wars mod if you want some kind of chaotic FFA. I understand you want a more fast paced and action packed game, but that is not entirely what X is.

Now, are there things that could be done to make the wars a bit more interesting? More interesting war goals, missions, etc.? Then I can get behind that.

No, hes simply asking for more sandbox features in a sandbox game.

How does it make sense that i can create a never ending war between argons and Terrans? Not to mention it's irreversible. Some form of diplomacy would be great to a degree.

Would stop certain factions getting steam rolled too, even if it was just temporary peace between current warring factions.

[Karvat]

The game needs a diplomatic system that changes the relationships between fractions autonomously and dynamically, without putting the player always in the middle of the Universe.

No it doesn't. Again, it doesn't make sense for every faction to be fighting. This is not a warring states period. The HOP and the PARANID are in a state of civil war with the Paranid allying with Argon/Antigone. The Split have just won a war and are weak, but can be eventually brought together in a few ways and make war on argon. Teladi are at war with no one. Terrans want to mess up the Xenon but have tensions with argon/antigone and can be brought to war with them. These wars all are part of the lore and make sense.

You want to turn that into a free for all but that is not logical. Use the dynamic wars mod if you want some kind of chaotic FFA. I understand you want a more fast paced and action packed game, but that is not entirely what X is.

Now, are there things that could be done to make the wars a bit more interesting? More interesting war goals, missions, etc.? Then I can get behind that.

The game doesn't need a chaotic FFA, the game has to give meaning to those relationships, a goal to be achieved at the end of those wars, a peace signed following a lost war.
The game needs to make those factions more autonomous and independent in their relationships, give a sense of continual evolution of conflicts and truces based on the evolution of the economy, the conquest of sectors and the hoarding of resources in those sectors. Changing the shape of the Universe over time instead of keeping it stagnant.

[BlackRain]

The game needs a diplomatic system that changes the relationships between fractions autonomously and dynamically, without putting the player always in the middle of the Universe.

No it doesn't. Again, it doesn't make sense for every faction to be fighting. This is not a warring states period. The HOP and the PARANID are in a state of civil war with the Paranid allying with Argon/Antigone. The Split have just won a war and are weak, but can be eventually brought together in a few ways and make war on argon. Teladi are at war with no one. Terrans want to mess up the Xenon but have tensions with argon/antigone and can be brought to war with them. These wars all are part of the lore and make sense.

You want to turn that into a free for all but that is not logical. Use the dynamic wars mod if you want some kind of chaotic FFA. I understand you want a more fast paced and action packed game, but that is not entirely what X is.

Now, are there things that could be done to make the wars a bit more interesting? More interesting war goals, missions, etc.? Then I can get behind that.

No, hes simply asking for more sandbox features in a sandbox game.

How does it make sense that i can create a never ending war between argons and Terrans? Not to mention it's irreversible. Some form of diplomacy would be great to a degree.

Would stop certain factions getting steam rolled too, even if it was just temporary peace between current warring factions.

It isn't never ending. What is the timeframe of the game? If anything, the Terrans had been fighting everyone else since X3 TC. Wars can last years, decades even. Who knows when it comes to space wars? You are playing the game in a specific time frame when this is the conflict that is going on. Even if you were to consider every day you spend of in game time to represent a much larger time frame (like a year for example) after 5 or 6 game days, the war could very well still be going on. It could even last 20, 30, 100 years depending on the type of conflict. This is completely normal and yes, nations can very well fight until they are obliterated. Your idea that the war is "endless" is just your perception of time as you play the game. I am perfectly fine with the way it is now and I doubt that Egosoft will implement what you are suggesting because it has huge repercussions for all players.

I could get behind things like temporary truces which could later be broken again. With the vanilla game, no faction is getting completely obliterated without the player's help anyway. I don't know what you are playing or if you are using mods, but straight up vanilla is pretty tame. No faction is entirely losing or making too significant gains unless it is an exceptionally long time and quite a bit of bad luck. If you are using mods which cause accelerated wars and conflict, then you really shouldn't be asking for anything with the vanilla game. In my mostly vanilla playthrough of seven in game days, the most any faction has lost was a single sector and that is even rare.

[Karvat]

No it doesn't. Again, it doesn't make sense for every faction to be fighting. This is not a warring states period. The HOP and the PARANID are in a state of civil war with the Paranid allying with Argon/Antigone. The Split have just won a war and are weak, but can be eventually brought together in a few ways and make war on argon. Teladi are at war with no one. Terrans want to mess up the Xenon but have tensions with argon/antigone and can be brought to war with them. These wars all are part of the lore and make sense.

You want to turn that into a free for all but that is not logical. Use the dynamic wars mod if you want some kind of chaotic FFA. I understand you want a more fast paced and action packed game, but that is not entirely what X is.

Now, are there things that could be done to make the wars a bit more interesting? More interesting war goals, missions, etc.? Then I can get behind that.

No, hes simply asking for more sandbox features in a sandbox game.

How does it make sense that i can create a never ending war between argons and Terrans? Not to mention it's irreversible. Some form of diplomacy would be great to a degree.

Would stop certain factions getting steam rolled too, even if it was just temporary peace between current warring factions.

It isn't never ending. What is the timeframe of the game? If anything, the Terrans had been fighting everyone else since X3 TC. Wars can last years, decades even. Who knows when it comes to space wars? You are playing the game in a specific time frame when this is the conflict that is going on. Even if you were to consider every day you spend of in game time to represent a much larger time frame (like a year for example) after 5 or 6 game days, the war could very well still be going on. It could even last 20, 30, 100 years depending on the type of conflict. This is completely normal and yes, nations can very well fight until they are obliterated. Your idea that the war is "endless" is just your perception of time as you play the game. I am perfectly fine with the way it is now and I doubt that Egosoft will implement what you are suggesting because it has huge repercussions for all players.

I could get behind things like temporary truces which could later be broken again. With the vanilla game, no faction is getting completely obliterated without the player's help anyway. I don't know what you are playing or if you are using mods, but straight up vanilla is pretty tame. No faction is entirely losing or making too significant gains unless it is an exceptionally long time and quite a bit of bad luck. If you are using mods which cause accelerated wars and conflict, then you really shouldn't be asking for anything with the vanilla game. In my mostly vanilla playthrough of seven in game days, the most any faction has lost was a single sector and that is even rare.

Yes, this is exactly why conflict in the game as they are now are boring.
Because nothing changes.

"In my mostly vanilla playthrough of seven in game days, the most any faction has lost was a single sector and that is even rare."
Boring. Static. Stagnant.

Instead they should seek help from other factions when they are in trouble, lose many sectors and have a truce with their opponents when they are nearly wiped out.
Then take back their economy with their friendlier neighbors and start the war again when they are ready.

On the other hand, the winning factions should have claims on the losing one, focus their efforts against other opponents after signing a truce and increase their power in the Universe raising hostilities with other factions.

[Midnitewolf]

The game needs a diplomatic system that changes the relationships between fractions autonomously and dynamically, without putting the player always in the middle of the Universe.

No it doesn't. Again, it doesn't make sense for every faction to be fighting. This is not a warring states period. The HOP and the PARANID are in a state of civil war with the Paranid allying with Argon/Antigone. The Split have just won a war and are weak, but can be eventually brought together in a few ways and make war on argon. Teladi are at war with no one. Terrans want to mess up the Xenon but have tensions with argon/antigone and can be brought to war with them. These wars all are part of the lore and make sense.

You want to turn that into a free for all but that is not logical. Use the dynamic wars mod if you want some kind of chaotic FFA. I understand you want a more fast paced and action packed game, but that is not entirely what X is.

Now, are there things that could be done to make the wars a bit more interesting? More interesting war goals, missions, etc.? Then I can get behind that.

Yeah it does. You can't have dynamic gameplay experiences if the universe is static.

For example, I would love to do a playthrough where I start as TER and because of their isolation, they have decided that all non-human races must perish. However, there is no way I can create this situation with the locked conflicts. I mean I can decide I will be a rogue faction and go it alone, sure, but there is no way I can get the Terran Protectorate and the Pioneers to go along with it and help me get rid of the Alien menace.

Also it is natural for factions to go to war with the neighbors especially since the galaxy is small and the resources are limited. Maybe your economy is starved for resources and another faction has control over a sector that is extremely rich. Maybe there was a political misunderstanding and conflict arose out of it. There are tons of logical reasons why factions would war with each other. Hell just look at history, you don't even have to go that far back, just to 1990 when Iraq invaded Kuwait to get their oil resources.

Also remember, this is a sandbox. That being the case, the "Lore" should be dynamic and changing, not scripted.

[BlackRain]

I understand Karvat, but you have to understand that not all players want that. They have to create a balance, but you can still get what you want with mods. Even just in my corporations mod, I included a script from deadair where you can play around with diplomatic relations (like cause a faction to make peace or go to war with another). You can use this to simulate a bit what you want maybe.

[BlackRain]

The game needs a diplomatic system that changes the relationships between fractions autonomously and dynamically, without putting the player always in the middle of the Universe.

No it doesn't. Again, it doesn't make sense for every faction to be fighting. This is not a warring states period. The HOP and the PARANID are in a state of civil war with the Paranid allying with Argon/Antigone. The Split have just won a war and are weak, but can be eventually brought together in a few ways and make war on argon. Teladi are at war with no one. Terrans want to mess up the Xenon but have tensions with argon/antigone and can be brought to war with them. These wars all are part of the lore and make sense.

You want to turn that into a free for all but that is not logical. Use the dynamic wars mod if you want some kind of chaotic FFA. I understand you want a more fast paced and action packed game, but that is not entirely what X is.

Now, are there things that could be done to make the wars a bit more interesting? More interesting war goals, missions, etc.? Then I can get behind that.

Yeah it does. You can't have dynamic gameplay experiences if the universe is static.

For example, I would love to do a playthrough where I start as TER and because of their isolation, they have decided that all non-human races must perish. However, there is no way I can create this situation with the locked conflicts. I mean I can decide I will be a rogue faction and go it alone, sure, but there is no way I can get the Terran Protectorate and the Pioneers to go along with it and help me get rid of the Alien menace.

Also it is natural for factions to go to war with the neighbors especially since the galaxy is small and the resources are limited. Maybe your economy is starved for resources and another faction has control over a sector that is extremely rich. Maybe there was a political misunderstanding and conflict arose out of it. There are tons of logical reasons why factions would war with each other. Hell just look at history, you don't even have to go that far back, just to 1990 when Iraq invaded Kuwait to get their oil resources.

Also remember, this is a sandbox. That being the case, the "Lore" should be dynamic and changing, not scripted.

Then you will need to find a different game because that is not what X is. It seems that you guys don't really get it. You are too focused on one aspect of the game, but X is designed for many different types of players.

X is also not just a game, it is also a story. The events of each game also fit into that story. So no, they can't have Argon and antigone fighting or whatever other combination of things you want because it doesn't fit the narrative of the lore and game. So no, it is not "natural" for factions to go to war for resources etc. Do you see the US and Canada going to war any time soon? How about the US and Mexico? However, the US might go to war with someone in the middle east (as has happened in recent times). Argon/Antigone are not going to fight each other. They support the Paranid against the HOP. Teladi just want to trade. Split are busy but will go to war if they are strong, etc. This is how the game is designed and it also fits the narrative. Anything else will not fit and while I can't say with 100% certainty what the developers will do, I think I can say with confidence that this wont change. There may be other options in the future though.

[Karvat]

The game needs a diplomatic system that changes the relationships between fractions autonomously and dynamically, without putting the player always in the middle of the Universe.

No it doesn't. Again, it doesn't make sense for every faction to be fighting. This is not a warring states period. The HOP and the PARANID are in a state of civil war with the Paranid allying with Argon/Antigone. The Split have just won a war and are weak, but can be eventually brought together in a few ways and make war on argon. Teladi are at war with no one. Terrans want to mess up the Xenon but have tensions with argon/antigone and can be brought to war with them. These wars all are part of the lore and make sense.

You want to turn that into a free for all but that is not logical. Use the dynamic wars mod if you want some kind of chaotic FFA. I understand you want a more fast paced and action packed game, but that is not entirely what X is.

Now, are there things that could be done to make the wars a bit more interesting? More interesting war goals, missions, etc.? Then I can get behind that.

Yeah it does. You can't have dynamic gameplay experiences if the universe is static.

For example, I would love to do a playthrough where I start as TER and because of their isolation, they have decided that all non-human races must perish. However, there is no way I can create this situation with the locked conflicts. I mean I can decide I will be a rogue faction and go it alone, sure, but there is no way I can get the Terran Protectorate and the Pioneers to go along with it and help me get rid of the Alien menace.

Also it is natural for factions to go to war with the neighbors especially since the galaxy is small and the resources are limited. Maybe your economy is starved for resources and another faction has control over a sector that is extremely rich. Maybe there was a political misunderstanding and conflict arose out of it. There are tons of logical reasons why factions would war with each other. Hell just look at history, you don't even have to go that far back, just to 1990 when Iraq invaded Kuwait to get their oil resources.

Also remember, this is a sandbox. That being the case, the "Lore" should be dynamic and changing, not scripted.

This is exactly what everyone wanted to do in CoH.
Everyone wanted to conquer the universe for the Terrans.

And everyone got stuck seeing the Terrans neutral to Antigone and blocked by the gates in Savage Spur I.
Even worse, to trigger the war between Terrans and Antigone you are forced to build up your relationship with the Argon and complete the plot after building up your economy.

[al_dude]

There are already wars.

ANT vs HOP

HOP vs PAR

ZYA vs ARG

Teladi won't like any wars on them, so it makes sense that they are a neutral faction.

Additional wars can be started if you do story line mission arcs.

Like TER vs ARG/ANT.

The wars are there. The issue is that the wars are not quite noticeable. The only time I've noticed that a war was going on was when HOP took Second contact II Flashpoint, then proceed to capture the Void. That was the only time I felt that a war was going on.

Other war fronts are too tame.

X4 is indeed a sandbox game but it is sandbox within the game lore. I think what you are asking is better for a mod.

[BlackRain]

There are already wars.

ANT vs HOP

HOP vs PAR

ZYA vs ARG

Teladi won't like any wars on them, so it makes sense that they are a neutral faction.

Additional wars can be started if you do story line mission arcs.

Like TER vs ARG/ANT.

The wars are there. The issue is that the wars are not quite noticeable. The only time I've noticed that a war was going on was when HOP took Second contact II Flashpoint, then proceed to capture the Void. That was the only time I felt that a war was going on.

Other war fronts are too tame.

X4 is indeed a sandbox game but it is sandbox within the game lore. I think what you are asking is better for a mod.

I agree that there should be more missions or more ways to interact with the wars going on, etc. Definitely should be more stuff within the existing situation. Maybe some interesting war missions/goals, etc. Or some big/major battles that might take place through certain objectives.

[al_dude]

I agree that there should be more missions or more ways to interact with the wars going on, etc. Definitely should be more stuff within the existing situation. Maybe some interesting war missions/goals, etc. Or some big/major battles that might take place through certain objectives.

I think Egosoft did a good job with the Terran war with Argon. The quest is very long and tedious, but starting a war should never be easy to begin with.

[Ryba]

There are already wars.

ANT vs HOP

HOP vs PAR

ZYA vs ARG

Teladi won't like any wars on them, so it makes sense that they are a neutral faction.

Additional wars can be started if you do story line mission arcs.

Like TER vs ARG/ANT.

The wars are there. The issue is that the wars are not quite noticeable. The only time I've noticed that a war was going on was when HOP took Second contact II Flashpoint, then proceed to capture the Void. That was the only time I felt that a war was going on.

Other war fronts are too tame.

X4 is indeed a sandbox game but it is sandbox within the game lore. I think what you are asking is better for a mod.

I'm not saying that there are no wars in X4. I'm saying, that for player it would be much more entertaining If there will be some sort of chain mission attached to it. To feel, that the war is going on, that this war has it's goals and can be win or lost with further consequences.

[Karvat]

I agree that there should be more missions or more ways to interact with the wars going on, etc. Definitely should be more stuff within the existing situation. Maybe some interesting war missions/goals, etc. Or some big/major battles that might take place through certain objectives.

I think Egosoft did a good job with the Terran war with Argon. The quest is very long and tedious, but starting a war should never be easy to begin with.

The quest is very long and tedius, you can't reverse your decision after it, there's no goal to the war you trigger, it never ends, it doesen't have any consequence... But egosoft did a great job?
Seriously, the game needs a serious diplomatic system that gives identity to these factions, and at the moment it's inexistent.

[al_dude]

The quest is very long and tedius, you can't reverse your decision after it, there's no goal to the war you trigger, it never ends, it doesen't have any consequence... But egosoft did a great job?
Seriously, the game needs a serious diplomatic system that gives identity to these factions, and at the moment it's inexistent.

Yes, they've gone a good job, considering what we've had so far. And, no, you shouldn't be able to reverse your decision once you single-handedly begin a bloody war.

The game may not give you a goal once the war starts, but I certainly do. I will take over ARG/ANT sectors. That's a a part of a sandbox game. Players have to set goals. If I don't want their sectors, I won't start the mission, simple as.

[Karvat]

The point isn't if there are wars or not.

The point is that they're pointless, they have no consequences, nobody conquers anything, nobody looses anything, the Universe looks always the same, they don't even start without the player's intervent, that is always and too much in the middle of everything.
They never end, they have no goals, they don't change.

Factions just keep fighitng these wars for nothing, they have no identity, no ability to choose if they want to stop them or keep fighting them.
The IA behind this diplomatic system is INEXISTENT.

[al_dude]

The point isn't if there are wars or not.

The point is that they're pointless, they have no consequences, nobody conquers anything, nobody looses anything, the Universe looks always the same, they don't even start without the player's intervent, that is always and too much in the middle of everything.
They never end, they have no goals, they don't change.

Factions just keep fighitng these wars for nothing, they have no identity, no ability to choose if they want to stop them or keep fighting them.
The IA behind this diplomatic system is INEXISTENT.

I think that's the way Egosoft wants it actually. They want everything at stalemate with you (player) being the game changer.

ANT/HOP war is the only interesting one because ANT, in my games at least, tend to lose Second contact II and the Void to HOP.

[Exitialis101]

Just going to link DeadAir's excellent mod here for those who did not know about Dynamic Wars. Link:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/ ... 2082610148

It is a very good mod. I do not think Egosoft is ever going to implement any sort of dynamic war/diplomacy system. And a lot of player may not like it either. So modding I think, is the solution here.