What's the point of Carriers?

[Morleond]

Simple question and a suggestion. What is the point of having a XL carrier class when a L destroyer can hold 40+ ships? Perhaps the L destroyer should only be able to hold 10 ships, (and 2 M ships for the Odysseus in addition to the S Ships)

[GCU Grey Area]

Simple question and a suggestion. What is the point of having a XL carrier class when a L destroyer can hold 40+ ships? Perhaps the L destroyer should only be able to hold 10 ships, (and 2 M ships for the Odysseus in addition to the S Ships)

Launch speed is the critical difference. Destroyers rely on their docks to raise & lower ships into/from internal storage. This is a very slow procedure for large numbers of ships. Carriers have specialised launch tubes that can empty internal ship storage in a matter of seconds.

Agree though capacity of destroyers seems a little high in many cases, though for me that's purely a visual thing (they simply don't look big enough to hold that many ships), I'd never even consider actually putting that many into one. Getting them out again would be an annoyingly protracted procedure when I could simply use a proper carrier & launch them all in a fraction of the time.

[pref]

Perhaps not. I'd much more prefer the carriers having some added utility features to them, like limited p2p jump so they are actually faster in getting small ships to destination then letting those ships go by themselves, repair, rearm, higher radar range or whatever else.
Just making another ship or whole class weaker won't add much to the game.

[Chris0132]

When they add those supply ships it would definitely be appropriate to add some of their features, such as being able to serve as an EQD for small ships, to carriers.

[mr.WHO]

I don't know why people are fixated about "how launchtubes are better on carriers and this makes carriers better".

In 9 out of 10 cases if you need to launch fighters fast it mean you FAILED to operate carrier properly - carriers shouldn't suppose to make combat launch under fire.

Launch tube doesn't make carriers much more useful over Destroyers in actual combat.

[Malakie]

I don't know why people are fixated about "how launchtubes are better on carriers and this makes carriers better".

In 9 out of 10 cases if you need to launch fighters fast it mean you FAILED to operate carrier properly - carriers shouldn't suppose to make combat launch under fire.

Launch tube doesn't make carriers much more useful over Destroyers in actual combat.

Take it from someone that served in real life in carrier fleets, you DO want that fast speed.. and your statement it is not needed or you failed to operate your carrier right is just bunk.. LOL Space even more so.

There are times when 'shit' happens, the unexpected, and you need to suddenly without warning, get birds in the air right now. There is a reason US Aircraft carriers can do just that.

In space, what happens if a fleet drops in on you suddenly without warning? Or what happens if you are near what you thought was a friendly and it goes rogue? Getting your birds into the air as fast as possible, is paramount to the survival of the carrier...

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

Simple question and a suggestion. What is the point of having a XL carrier class when a L destroyer can hold 40+ ships? Perhaps the L destroyer should only be able to hold 10 ships, (and 2 M ships for the Odysseus in addition to the S Ships)

I disagree - as GCU Grey Area has already pointed out Launch Speed (assuming internally docked ship AI works appropriately) is a key descriminator. This is not the only distinction though, XL ships can also recover ships faster due to the higher number of landing pads relative to their L sized cousins. There are other differences too such as larger crews, higher ammo capacity, larger cargo space, stronger shields, and more M turrets (which are clearly designed to be primarily defensive turrets). There is also the point that with the sole exception of the Odysseus, no L sized ship is currently able to carry M sized vessels either.

As for the Odysseus, it suffers for it's M docking capability by sacrificing 2 S surface pads (v the Behemoth) and only has one M pad. This does constrain the Odysseus in some ways but it also has a larger number of L and M turrets which does offset this somewhat.

How significant these points are to any given player will vary greatly depending on playing style choices but the Carrier class is far from being the white elephant that some keep trying to paint it as.

[GCU Grey Area]

I don't know why people are fixated about "how launchtubes are better on carriers and this makes carriers better".

In 9 out of 10 cases if you need to launch fighters fast it mean you FAILED to operate carrier properly - carriers shouldn't suppose to make combat launch under fire.

Combat launch under fire? Importance of launch speed has very little to do with that.
My fighters are primarily there to distract enemy turrets from shooting at my destroyers. That works much better if they all attack the same target at the same time. With a carrier this is easy to do. Just shift select all the docked fighters, give a single attack order & the launch tubes mean they all launch at effectively the same time & reach the target pretty much simultaneously. With a destroyer carried fighter swarm that's significantly harder to achieve. Fighters launch from a destroyer a few at a time, then you need to wait for a considerable amount of time for them to all assemble at a rally point, before finally being able to give the attack order, otherwise they get too spaced out on the flight to the target. Big mob of fighters has strength in numbers, same number of fighters arriving in a long line 1 or 2 at a time is far less effective & much more likely to sustain losses.

Launch tube doesn't make carriers much more useful over Destroyers in actual combat.

Not claiming they're more useful in combat (in 2.0 it's highly unusual for my carrier to even get within 20km of an enemy ship), just that they're far superior at transporting & deploying fighters.

[Chris0132]

I don't know why people are fixated about "how launchtubes are better on carriers and this makes carriers better".

In 9 out of 10 cases if you need to launch fighters fast it mean you FAILED to operate carrier properly - carriers shouldn't suppose to make combat launch under fire.

Launch tube doesn't make carriers much more useful over Destroyers in actual combat.

Unfortunately carriers in X don't really work the way they do in real life. They're big battleships that drop lots of fighters. We don't really have fuel range or anything to worry about and most weapons don't use ammunition.

Using a carrier to attack into another sector is a good reason to have rapid launch ability, send the carrier in and then launch all the fighters, but even then there's not really a reason why you would need the carrier, you could just send all the fighters through.

A carrier is just a fighter wrangler, basically. You stick the fighters in the carrier to keep them all together and then poop them all out at once toward the enemy. It's a bit lame but aside from fighter missile resupply, there's not really any other thing you would need a carrier for in X, without changing how fighters work pretty heavily.

If carriers could assemble their own fighters from parts, that would be an interesting idea. But that's gonna have a lot of overlap with the supply ship idea. You could perhaps make them militarized supply ships, with better guns and shielding than general purpose supply craft in exchange for only being able to service or construct fighters.

[hxsgame]

Carriers（XL） need jump engines and Long-distance maintenance beam.

[Brianetta]

Using a carrier to attack into another sector is a good reason to have rapid launch ability, send the carrier in and then launch all the fighters, but even then there's not really a reason why you would need the carrier, you could just send all the fighters through.

Bit of a niche case, I know, but there are a couple of Xenon sectors where carriers can help out. With the fighters all snug aboard a carrier, you can take them through sectors with minefields and radiation zones safely, then deploy them in the next sector. The alternative of sending them through piecemeal while you're not around carries a greater risk to them.

[Morleond]

Simple question and a suggestion. What is the point of having a XL carrier class when a L destroyer can hold 40+ ships? Perhaps the L destroyer should only be able to hold 10 ships, (and 2 M ships for the Odysseus in addition to the S Ships)

Launch speed is the critical difference. Destroyers rely on their docks to raise & lower ships into/from internal storage. This is a very slow procedure for large numbers of ships. Carriers have specialised launch tubes that can empty internal ship storage in a matter of seconds.

Agree though capacity of destroyers seems a little high in many cases, though for me that's purely a visual thing (they simply don't look big enough to hold that many ships), I'd never even consider actually putting that many into one. Getting them out again would be an annoyingly protracted procedure when I could simply use a proper carrier & launch them all in a fraction of the time.

I definitely agree with the fact that they don't look like they can store them. I captured an Odysseus and I watched it store a medium ship. I can see how it can fit 1 in storage. Unless these ships are Merry Poppins bags there is no way they could even fit 2 mediums in storage, nevermind 10. It does seem like they could hold 5 small fighters in each dock. I really think that this should be changed in a future update. On the subject of size. Ever notice how your starter ship is obviously a 1 man fighter and if it was smaller it would be stupid? The civilian ships around stations are super small even in comparison to the smallest fighter. Where the hell does the pilot sit or even carry cargo?

[Karmaticdamage]

Have none of you ever put together a battle carrier? Take a carrier, put nothing but plasma on it, dock four m sized ship with plasma turrets on its back.
You now have a capital ship/station melting machine. A carrier setup this way will out dps several destroyers, TTK on a xenon K is under 30 seconds. M ships docked on a carrier/destroyer can fire their turrets, I find gorgons work best for this because all four of their turrets are on top of the ship.

[Tya]

40 fighters docked on a destroyer: Moves at ~250m/s, launches slowly.

40 fighters docked on a carrier: Moves at ~150m/s. Launches quickly.

40 fighters not docked at all: Moves 300-500m/s. "Launches" instantly.

Seems kinda pointless to discuss carriers vs destroyers, when both are strictly worse than just flying a cloud of undocked fighters.

[GCU Grey Area]

Have none of you ever put together a battle carrier? Take a carrier, put nothing but plasma on it, dock four m sized ship with plasma turrets on its back.
You now have a capital ship/station melting machine. A carrier setup this way will out dps several destroyers, TTK on a xenon K is under 30 seconds. M ships docked on a carrier/destroyer can fire their turrets, I find gorgons work best for this because all four of their turrets are on top of the ship.

My Condor's rigged that way, at least partially. All of the ventral M turrets are Plasma (L is Beam) & the 2 M docks with line of sight below the ship contain Osprey Sentinels with a full Plasma turret loadout. Dorsal turrets are M Pulse to fend off enemy fighters & remaining M dock is left clear for my use. Don't tend to use it against capital ships though, my destroyers are efficient enough on their own for that & can do the job from a much longer range. However it has proved very handy for station demolition.

40 fighters docked on a destroyer: Moves at ~250m/s, launches slowly.

40 fighters docked on a carrier: Moves at ~150m/s. Launches quickly.

40 fighters not docked at all: Moves 300-500m/s. "Launches" instantly.

Seems kinda pointless to discuss carriers vs destroyers, when both are strictly worse than just flying a cloud of undocked fighters.

It's the difference in travel mode speed which was the deciding factor for me - carriers are noticeably quicker in travel mode than their respective heavy fighters. All the more so when you start modifying engines & chassis. My Condor is around 3x faster in travel mode than any of the Buzzards it's carrying &, although they could maybe go faster on the highways, there's not always a convenient highway for the entire route, particularly in Xenon sectors. Also not a fan of splitting up my fleet by having it's various elements travelling at different speeds - don't want my destroyers having to wait for fighter support to catch up (they're considerably faster too).

[sh1pman]

It's the difference in travel mode speed which was the deciding factor for me - carriers are noticeably quicker in travel mode than their respective heavy fighters. All the more so when you start modifying engines & chassis. My Condor is around 3x faster in travel mode than any of the Buzzards it's carrying &, although they could maybe go faster on the highways, there's not always a convenient highway for the entire route, particularly in Xenon sectors. Also not a fan of splitting up my fleet by having it's various elements travelling at different speeds - don't want my destroyers having to wait for fighter support to catch up (they're considerably faster too).

But travel mode speed gets heavily throttled if the capital ship in question isn’t nearby. If it’s in another zone/sector or just 100 km or so away (so that its model isn’t rendered), its travel speed gets massively reduced. Example: my Selene Sentinel traders have about 6 km/s travel mode speed. If I’m on board, or just use F3 to external view, it can get to 6 km/s. But if it’s in another zone or just far enough away, its top travel speed gets limited to about 2 km/s. Applies to all L ships that I own, freighters and destroyers alike. I don't own carriers because I think they’re useless, but I assume this throttling applies to them as well.

[GCU Grey Area]

But travel mode speed gets heavily throttled if the capital ship in question isn’t nearby. If it’s in another zone/sector or just 100 km or so away (so that its model isn’t rendered), its travel speed gets massively reduced. Example: my Selene Sentinel traders have about 6 km/s travel mode speed. If I’m on board, or just use F3 to external view, it can get to 6 km/s. But if it’s in another zone or just far enough away, its top travel speed gets limited to about 2 km/s. Applies to all L ships that I own, freighters and destroyers alike. I don't own carriers, because I think they’re useless, but I assume this throttling applies to them as well.

No idea if it does, was not aware of it until now. However, that's utterly irrelevant to me since I'm almost always in close proximity to the fleet (never know when you're going to encounter a marauding K). I often fly the Condor personally on longer journeys, only undocking to fly something more fun (usually Peregrine) when the enemy's nearby, so from the sound of it this travel speed throttling simply doesn't apply to my fleet. Anyway, surely that would apply to fighters too if they were constantly getting left behind by the faster ships in the fleet?

[sh1pman]

Don't know if it applies to fighters, it might. I didn't check. I noticed in map view that my freighters in other zones move much much slower than they should. I teleported to one, and it immediately got, like, 3 times faster in travel mode. Then I noticed the same thing happening to capitals in my zone, but far away from me. When I get closer, its speed jumps back to the advertised 6 km/s or whatever it is. It's easy to test, actually. Order one of your ships away to some far corner of the zone. At first, it flies at its top travel speed, then at some point it gets massively slowed down. That final speed is the speed it travels at when you're not around.

[GCU Grey Area]

Don't know if it applies to fighters, it might.

Actually, now I think of it, effects on my fighters would be negligible in practice - they can barely manage 2km/s in travel mode anyway. They're mostly Buzzard Sentinels (4 are Vanguards) with mk3 combat engines & basic engine mods to improve forward thrust at the cost of reduced travel speed. Although that last bit doesn't really matter too much since they have a carrier which can exceed 7km/s for long journeys.

[Chris0132]

I feel like long haul L ship speed would be more relevant if there were more sectors that weren't the highway. Cos them constantly trying to path to the back of the gate makes traversing most sectors miserable with L ships on autopilot and they can't fly past the highway advertisements either.

Couple of sectors the size of nopileos fortune with the gigantic open highway down the middle would make L ships more usable.