Still baffled that there isn't a behavior for responding to aggression

[oddible]

So there is a behavior for responding to Pirate Harassment and I can pick Escape. But there is no behavior for responding to aggression from an enemy faction. This is seriously a significant gap. So a trade ship flies by an enemy laser tower in another faction's space, and STOPS TO SHOOT AT IT getting its own attack order!?!??! This is silly. So then I get a rep hit because my TRADE SHIP went all aggro on an enemy faction - something that should NEVER happen. I want all my trade ships to always escape or comply. Please add this.

[Gavrushka]

I think there are a few glaring issues around combat, and most are to do with inappropriate responses. Trade ships get sucked into battles they can never win, while their military fleets, just 30 kilometres away, go all pacifist. - A solitary K can come into a sector, dismantle stations one by one, and that same military fleet can appear in sector, decide there's nothing to see, and go elsewhere.

And of course, Xenon are free to set up their own bases which will be ignored unless a patrol stumbles across them. - There really shouldn't be a fog of war issue with a factions' military seeing what is going on. - There really shouldn't be a ship/fleet working independently. - Every damned trade ship should be on the radio screaming 'there's an extinction level event going on here,' and yet we rely on the mechanics of a warning beacon reaching a station. - It's the equivalent of sending messages by pigeon in the space age! - Fundamental rethink of response mechanics needed, I feel...

I was thinking of doing a series of videos and saves and posting it in the beta forum, but it would beggar belief that Egosoft don't know the precise issues, and aren't planning some form of comprehensive improvement. - It's crazy that I have to leap into an important sector (it's early game, and I have few military assets) to lead a Xenon K to a defence station so it can be destroyed. - But if that same K stumbles across that mass of Plasma cannons in low attention, the result is different. - It's the same with any factory. - They can put up a fair fight with a K in sector, but just implode when I'm not there.

There's a thread about what you like least about Vanilla X4, and it has to be the races' military responses to sector incursions.

[taztaz502]

I really hope they start to concentrate more of their efforts on the AI and fixing/balancing the basic features. Making the AI react more natural would be nice.

[Osbot]

Flee behavior is absolutely horrendous.

They also need to address the conga line of doom for trade ships. Oh, Xenon have 70 ships on the other side of that gate? Oh, we've lost 30 L freighters in the last 2 hours? Let's maybe stop sending them that way?

In fact, they could do something like this. Totally peaceful? Send L freighters. Slight risk? Send M freighters? Full on blockade? Guess it's time to send the S freighters that have a better chance to run the blockade.

[sh1pman]

Flee behavior is absolutely horrendous.

They also need to address the conga line of doom for trade ships. Oh, Xenon have 70 ships on the other side of that gate? Oh, we've lost 30 L freighters in the last 2 hours? Let's maybe stop sending them that way?

In fact, they could do something like this. Totally peaceful? Send L freighters. Slight risk? Send M freighters? Full on blockade? Guess it's time to send the S freighters that have a better chance to run the blockade.

Freighters happily fly through enemy and Xenon sectors all the time. Survival rate is not great, to put it mildly, but otherwise some sectors may get completely cut off from supply. Not sure what is worse. Maybe the smartest solution would be to restrict flying through enemy sectors unless there is no other way around.

Also, S and M freighters will die much faster OOS than L ships. Especially if there’s 70 Xenon ships on the other side of the gate. Better to not go there at all.

[easternsun]

Someone reported this in the BETA thread and CBJ said he would look into it to have a passive only attack override command added.

[Buzz2005]

this is not about fire override but that at least AI faction have blacklists to avoid xenon/enemy sectors if they can, and ultimately to have NPCs fleets respond to stations/ship attacks

[moonandstar99]

I think there are a few glaring issues around combat, and most are to do with inappropriate responses. Trade ships get sucked into battles they can never win, while their military fleets, just 30 kilometres away, go all pacifist. - A solitary K can come into a sector, dismantle stations one by one, and that same military fleet can appear in sector, decide there's nothing to see, and go elsewhere.

And of course, Xenon are free to set up their own bases which will be ignored unless a patrol stumbles across them. - There really shouldn't be a fog of war issue with a factions' military seeing what is going on. - There really shouldn't be a ship/fleet working independently. - Every damned trade ship should be on the radio screaming 'there's an extinction level event going on here,' and yet we rely on the mechanics of a warning beacon reaching a station. - It's the equivalent of sending messages by pigeon in the space age! - Fundamental rethink of response mechanics needed, I feel...

I was thinking of doing a series of videos and saves and posting it in the beta forum, but it would beggar belief that Egosoft don't know the precise issues, and aren't planning some form of comprehensive improvement. - It's crazy that I have to leap into an important sector (it's early game, and I have few military assets) to lead a Xenon K to a defence station so it can be destroyed. - But if that same K stumbles across that mass of Plasma cannons in low attention, the result is different. - It's the same with any factory. - They can put up a fair fight with a K in sector, but just implode when I'm not there.

Couldn't agree more. I was dumbfounded the first time I saw the warning beacons in action--I still don't know exactly how they work. It would be a cool mechanic if there were some sort of 'close range jammer' the player could use to disrupt nearby ships from reporting attacks to sector security, but as it is it makes little sense.

[oddible]

Someone reported this in the BETA thread and CBJ said he would look into it to have a passive only attack override command added.

Great to hear, I want to give my own ships the right commands! The exact command I want literally already exists for Pirate Harassment but not for when they encounter enemy factions.

[Osbot]

Flee behavior is absolutely horrendous.

They also need to address the conga line of doom for trade ships. Oh, Xenon have 70 ships on the other side of that gate? Oh, we've lost 30 L freighters in the last 2 hours? Let's maybe stop sending them that way?

In fact, they could do something like this. Totally peaceful? Send L freighters. Slight risk? Send M freighters? Full on blockade? Guess it's time to send the S freighters that have a better chance to run the blockade.

Freighters happily fly through enemy and Xenon sectors all the time. Survival rate is not great, to put it mildly, but otherwise some sectors may get completely cut off from supply. Not sure what is worse. Maybe the smartest solution would be to restrict flying through enemy sectors unless there is no other way around.

Also, S and M freighters will die much faster OOS than L ships. Especially if there’s 70 Xenon ships on the other side of the gate. Better to not go there at all.

This isn't true if the ships hit the gate in travel mode. Then they fly through instantly. It's also far more economical to lose 50% of your S traders running a blockade, than it is to lose 100% of your L traders. S traders have a chance to get through if they hit it in travel mode. L traders have a 0% chance to get through a blockade. They just take 15s to die instead of 1s.

[sh1pman]

This isn't true if the ships hit the gate in travel mode. Then they fly through instantly. It's also far more economical to lose 50% of your S traders running a blockade, than it is to lose 100% of your L traders. S traders have a chance to get through if they hit it in travel mode. L traders have a 0% chance to get through a blockade. They just take 15s to die instead of 1s.

That’s why I said “OOS”. Most of the things in X4 happen in low attention. S and M freighters will just as easily get blown up while flying at max speed in travel mode OOS if there are enemy ships on the other side of the gate. One hit will kick them out of travel mode and then they’re doomed.
But yes, losing an S or M ship is a far lighter hit to the economy than losing an L freighter. They should just send the military after having 2-3 traders blown up in a short period of time.

[Cabrelbeuk]

OOS need a lot of attention honestly. Fight calculation come with very different output when you are out of sector compared to when you in, even if just looking.

[Fulgrymm]

OOS calculations have always been simplified, and I guess would still need to be until threadripper level processors become the norm.

[dtpsprt]

This isn't true if the ships hit the gate in travel mode. Then they fly through instantly. It's also far more economical to lose 50% of your S traders running a blockade, than it is to lose 100% of your L traders. S traders have a chance to get through if they hit it in travel mode. L traders have a 0% chance to get through a blockade. They just take 15s to die instead of 1s.

News Update: L /XL ships do not fly through gates in Travel Mode(!!!) Change implemented in V1.00...

[jlehtone]

- There really shouldn't be a fog of war issue with a factions' military seeing what is going on. -

Psychic: Admiral, we sense the Gavrushka faction's attempt to board one of our ships in deep space and the sudden destruction of its distress drones.
Admiral: Let's vaporize that faction!

I presume that NPC Admirals do not look at the galactic map to process information from all of their their scouts, satellites, and stations like the player does. It is not a trivial task.

[Gavrushka]

- There really shouldn't be a fog of war issue with a factions' military seeing what is going on. -

Psychic: Admiral, we sense the Gavrushka faction's attempt to board one of our ships in deep space and the sudden destruction of its distress drones.
Admiral: Let's vaporize that faction!

I presume that NPC Admirals do not look at the galactic map to process information from all of their their scouts, satellites, and stations like the player does. It is not a trivial task.

I'd hardly think it has to be sublime or ridiculous, but what I'm suggesting is the status quo is not a comfortable place for me. - And, yes, of course there should be more serious repercussions for player actions. - I appreciate that it isn't trivial to have ships and fleets work other than as individual entities, but I just play the game and do my utmost to suggest ideas that I feel may improve gameplay. - The most nonsensical parts (for me) are the inaction of defence fleets, and the lack of 'coordinated attack' options to the AI factions that are now available to the player.

[jlehtone]

The most nonsensical parts (for me) are the inaction of defence fleets, and the lack of 'coordinated attack' options to the AI factions that are now available to the player.

I do agree.

Yes, it would be nice, if factions would coordinate their actions according to the information that they have.
If they see everything, i.e. have no fog of war, then all the (documented ) mechanics for player to do mischief in the fog would be worthless.

If they are to obey fog of war, then each faction should get different result on "what's out there?" query. I presume that the data has only "player_known" flag, so only the player can get fogged result. Thus some ground-work would be necessary before even adding the Commander AI.


A ship can interrupt its normal routine on certain events; the overriding Flee or Attack orders.
A ship in formation can receive orders from its leader.
A Scout / Station could send "interrupt signal" to all military in sector/N jumps about existence of Foe? (Alas, that would not be a coordinated reaction.)
(Xenon did send K's to their station that I was harassing. Coincidence?)

[Osbot]

This isn't true if the ships hit the gate in travel mode. Then they fly through instantly. It's also far more economical to lose 50% of your S traders running a blockade, than it is to lose 100% of your L traders. S traders have a chance to get through if they hit it in travel mode. L traders have a 0% chance to get through a blockade. They just take 15s to die instead of 1s.

News Update: L /XL ships do not fly through gates in Travel Mode(!!!) Change implemented in V1.00...

Where did I say they did?

I thought it was implied that it's literally impossible to run through a serious blockade with anything L or larger. Cause, obvious.

What exactly is your point here? If 70 Xenon ships are camped out at a gate. The only thing that can maybe survive is an S transport, or an M transport. The risk is extreme. The loss of an S transport isn't that big of a deal materiel wise. The loss of an M is more serious. Waddling L and XL ships up to said gate = 100% loss of all assets without question, do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars.

The logic of sending the smallest risk into such a situation is pretty obvious. As I said in my original comment. It would be nice of the AI didn't conga line its entire logistical fleet into a death zone, and if it were desperate it would weigh the risk and send appropriate ships that have some sort of a chance to run said blockade.

So again, where did I say L ships are going to travel drive through?

[oddible]

Guys reel it back in - you're WAY off topic. If you want to discuss something else start a new thread. This thread is about me not having any way to tell my trade ships to NOT ATTACK a red enemy that shoots at it. As soon as an enemy shoots at it - they all get the ATTACK order rather than a Flee order. I want the same rule that applies to Pirate Harassment to apply to aggression by ANY ENEMY.

[jlehtone]

I want the same rule that applies to Pirate Harassment to apply to aggression by ANY ENEMY.

A separate rule would yield you more control. You want options (like Hold Fire) for the rules and more target selection filters, don't you?