Please just disallow boosting for capital ships

[Falcrack]

So I think the consensus is, either get rid of boosting for capital ships, or adjust the game mechanics so as to make it actually useful in some cases, and improve the AI in terms of when and where to use it. Finally, give the player good options to be able to turn it off it they wish, not the current system where you can only turn it off after an attack order has ben given by clicking through like 5 different menus for every single ship. Until another attack order is given and you have to do it all over again.

I really like the idea of separating boost energy from shields, with boost energy slowly recharging.

[GCU Grey Area]

I really like the idea of separating boost energy from shields, with boost energy slowly recharging.

I don't. Prefer the current system where I have to assess, for example, whether I'll take less shield damage overall if I boost towards an enemy, compared to making a slower approach which exposes my ship to more incoming fire & provides enemy ships with a significantly easier target to shoot at. That tactical decision would be less consequential if there was no immediate cost to using boosters, which would make combat in X4 less enjoyable for me.

[Falcrack]

I really like the idea of separating boost energy from shields, with boost energy slowly recharging.

I don't. Prefer the current system where I have to assess, for example, whether I'll take less shield damage overall if I boost towards an enemy, compared to making a slower approach which exposes my ship to more incoming fire & provides enemy ships with a significantly easier target to shoot at. That tactical decision would be less consequential if there was no immediate cost to using boosters, which would make combat in X4 less enjoyable for me.

This sort of tactical decision making is fine for us humans that have a brain, but it doesn't work so well when you try to program an AI to intelligently use it. Especially when the AI decides that a capital ship boosting away all its shields before going into battle or fleeing from an enemy for a gain of a couple m/s is a good idea.

[GCU Grey Area]

This sort of tactical decision making is fine for us humans that have a brain, but it doesn't work so well when you try to program an AI to intelligently use it. Especially when the AI decides that a capital ship boosting away all its shields before going into battle or fleeing from an enemy for a gain of a couple m/s is a good idea.

Not convinced it's worth making the game less fun to play just to make it easier for the AI &, as mentioned in an earlier post, it's the trivial speed gain from capital ship boosting that I consider to be a far bigger problem (both for the player & AI flown ships), rather than capital ship boosters per se.

[Axeface]

Just to chime in here, I really hope something is done about this problem. I dont know what the best approach would be although I really wouldnt miss the boosting if it were to disappear for L and XL. As it stands boosting is virtually useless for the largest ships in the game, but I have seen it actually successfully used by the AI in an L ONCE, which was nice. I saw a behemoth boost away from a K and it got out of range quickly because of the boost and then stopped boosting - but that is a single occurrence. I have seen bugged use of boosting hundreds of times, like when they get stuck boosting and waiting for it to regen 1% and boosting again, constantly, this happens all the time. What about making them only be able to boost if they have at least 20% shield or something? That could be a quick temporary fix.


Also, it would be really nice if Egosoft would revisit this entire idea - before the game released it was stated that they wernt sure about boosting being linked to shields, perhaps its time to really think about it?

[sh1pman]

I like that SCA destroyers sometimes boost away their shields to zero when you scan them. Makes boarding them much easier and faster. So that’s my argument against removing boost from L ships, I guess

[flywlyx]

What about making them only be able to boost if they have at least 20% shield or something? That could be a quick temporary fix.

In the current version, capital ships should only be permitted to boost if their shield level exceeds 50%.

Also, it would be really nice if Egosoft would revisit this entire idea - before the game released it was stated that they wernt sure about boosting being linked to shields, perhaps its time to really think about it?

A simple on/off switch for the player's AI is sufficient for now, especially if they could offer multiple options to differentiate between capital ships and fighters, as well as traders and warships.

[Submarine]

... Finally, give the player good options to be able to turn it off it they wish, not the current system where you can only turn it off after an attack order has ben given by clicking through like 5 different menus for every single ship. Until another attack order is given and you have to do it all over again.
...

this ... sadly, is what makes X4 unplayable for me atm

[Axeface]

What about making them only be able to boost if they have at least 20% shield or something? That could be a quick temporary fix.

In the current version, capital ships should only be permitted to boost if their shield level exceeds 50%.

Also, it would be really nice if Egosoft would revisit this entire idea - before the game released it was stated that they wernt sure about boosting being linked to shields, perhaps its time to really think about it?

A simple on/off switch for the player's AI is sufficient for now, especially if they could offer multiple options to differentiate between capital ships and fighters, as well as traders and warships.

I care less about my ships doing it than the AI doing it, to be honest. As for the 50% thing, I didnt know that but it clearly doesnt work.

[BlackRain]

I really like the idea of separating boost energy from shields, with boost energy slowly recharging.

I don't. Prefer the current system where I have to assess, for example, whether I'll take less shield damage overall if I boost towards an enemy, compared to making a slower approach which exposes my ship to more incoming fire & provides enemy ships with a significantly easier target to shoot at. That tactical decision would be less consequential if there was no immediate cost to using boosters, which would make combat in X4 less enjoyable for me.

I don't want to assume here, but you may be the only person who thinks this is a useful feature. Boosting for Capital ships is just inane, especially for the AI. The boosting does very little to any noticeable movement speed for a capital ship and the drain to shields is quick. I think you are just too hung up on the feature, I just can't imagine you would feel much different if they had a separate boost gauge and you still would have to make a tactical choice to use the boost or not and at what moment. In my opinion, there is just no meaningful impact to Capital ships having boost and I don't know how much this matters, but I have over 5000 hours in this game lol.

[GCU Grey Area]

I don't want to assume here, but you may be the only person who thinks this is a useful feature. Boosting for Capital ships is just inane, especially for the AI. The boosting does very little to any noticeable movement speed for a capital ship and the drain to shields is quick. I think you are just too hung up on the feature, I just can't imagine you would feel much different if they had a separate boost gauge and you still would have to make a tactical choice to use the boost or not and at what moment. In my opinion, there is just no meaningful impact to Capital ships having boost and I don't know how much this matters, but I have over 5000 hours in this game lol.

There are 2 distinct issues.

The response that you quoted was prompted largely because the discussion had appeared to move on to boosters in general & would not want ALL boosting (i.e. S&M ships as well as L&XL) to be replaced by an independently powered boost system. I use boost a LOT during combat. I use it to launch torpedoes at much faster speeds than they can normally manage & to minimise the amount of time my ship is exposed to enemy fire during attack runs. Generally do this in a frigate by the way, which tend to be bullet magnets unless you fly them aggressively & make full use of boost. Would certainly not want boost changed for such ships because I thoroughly enjoy the Think aspect of playing the game this way; constantly monitoring my shielding to decide how much I can afford to sacrifice for extra speed & how much I need to retain to keep my shield up. Would find this sort of combat much less enjoyable without the need to carefully manage energy expenditure.

My feelings about capitals are somewhat different with respect to boosting. Would agree that the situation is fairly dire at the moment. However my preferred solution would be for better capital boosters (i.e. capable of MUCH faster acceleration), rather than no boosters at all. Think this would benefit both player & AI flown capitals.

Incidentally, played a fair bit of X4 too... https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/mjlh1ad1 ... i7p2n&dl=0

[flywlyx]

I care less about my ships doing it than the AI doing it, to be honest. As for the 50% thing, I didnt know that but it clearly doesnt work.

If they could enhance its speed by 5 to 10 times, then perhaps it might prove useful.

Nevertheless, considering the AI's inherent weakness, my only wish is that enabling this option doesn't necessitate starting a new game.

[Submarine]

... would not want ALL boosting (i.e. S&M ships as well as L&XL) to be replaced by an independently powered boost system. I use boost a LOT during combat. ... Would certainly not want boost changed for such ships because I thoroughly enjoy the Think aspect of playing the game this way ...

My feelings about capitals are somewhat different with respect to boosting. Would agree that the situation is fairly dire at the moment. However my preferred solution would be for better capital boosters (i.e. capable of MUCH faster acceleration), rather than no boosters at all. Think this would benefit both player & AI flown capitals...

Agree L / XL ship boost is a damp squib and should either go large or go home. It is neither fish nor foul, no use for chase or escape, the two tactics it might serve if it was more functional. It has been nervously nerfed and really it either needs to be bravely exaggerated, cost as well as effect, or completely cut for L size and above.

Also agree boost in S and M ships is fun for the player as a piloting skill, partly because the AI are a bit crap at it which gives a player advantage, feeding the godlike narcissism & fun for which egosoft games are famous. It would be more playable if we were given the tools to manage boost use in our own fleets. I dont mind AI getting their incarnations blown up, as long as it isn't my assets.

I care less about my ships doing it than the AI doing it, to be honest. As for the 50% thing, I didnt know that but it clearly doesnt work.

If they could enhance its speed by 5 to 10 times, then perhaps it might prove useful.

Nevertheless, considering the AI's inherent weakness, my only wish is that enabling this option doesn't necessitate starting a new game.

I dont think that would require a restart, it would just change ongoing ship behaviour.

The real problem is an AI script to manage a different kind of boost needs to be written.

50% thing obviously doesn't work so honing AI needs doing anyway, could change capital boost at the same time.

[BlackRain]

I don't want to assume here, but you may be the only person who thinks this is a useful feature. Boosting for Capital ships is just inane, especially for the AI. The boosting does very little to any noticeable movement speed for a capital ship and the drain to shields is quick. I think you are just too hung up on the feature, I just can't imagine you would feel much different if they had a separate boost gauge and you still would have to make a tactical choice to use the boost or not and at what moment. In my opinion, there is just no meaningful impact to Capital ships having boost and I don't know how much this matters, but I have over 5000 hours in this game lol.

There are 2 distinct issues.

The response that you quoted was prompted largely because the discussion had appeared to move on to boosters in general & would not want ALL boosting (i.e. S&M ships as well as L&XL) to be replaced by an independently powered boost system. I use boost a LOT during combat. I use it to launch torpedoes at much faster speeds than they can normally manage & to minimise the amount of time my ship is exposed to enemy fire during attack runs. Generally do this in a frigate by the way, which tend to be bullet magnets unless you fly them aggressively & make full use of boost. Would certainly not want boost changed for such ships because I thoroughly enjoy the Think aspect of playing the game this way; constantly monitoring my shielding to decide how much I can afford to sacrifice for extra speed & how much I need to retain to keep my shield up. Would find this sort of combat much less enjoyable without the need to carefully manage energy expenditure.

My feelings about capitals are somewhat different with respect to boosting. Would agree that the situation is fairly dire at the moment. However my preferred solution would be for better capital boosters (i.e. capable of MUCH faster acceleration), rather than no boosters at all. Think this would benefit both player & AI flown capitals.

Incidentally, played a fair bit of X4 too... https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/mjlh1ad1 ... i7p2n&dl=0

Lol, you have more hours than me, but I also have thousands of hours in Bannerlord and other games, can't spend all my time on X4 haha.

[Scoob]

I always thought, and suggested in the dim and distant past, that boost drawing on the Weapon capacitor might be an alternate idea. I.e. When I'm boosting I'm evading / fleeing, not shooting. Sure, the weapon bar is supposed to be cooling rather than energy. However, as I understand it, it's still a "pool" of sorts and could be drawn on for boost.

If shield strength currently "fuels" boost, then why not weapon energy? With the various engine types having their own boost characteristics - top speed, "fuel" used per second etc. - it'd still balance out quite nicely.

That said, I'd far prefer a separate boost capacitor for S and M-Class Ships. Larger ships boosting seems silly to me.

Aside: With larger ship, I'd have them unable to boost, but be resistant to Travel Drive disruption. I.e. a single shot from a Combat Drone wouldn't disable their travel drive, it'd take a heavier hit.

Regarding boost in general. I prefer how VRO balances it vs. Vanilla. In vanilla it's a short, but very significant, increase in speed. In VRO, it's a slower burn, less speed, but it has a little more utility as a result. However, without shields - arguably when you need that boost the most - it doesn't work with either method.

Lol, you have more hours than me, but I also have thousands of hours in Bannerlord and other games, can't spend all my time on X4 haha.

Gasp! Game cheater! You're cheating on X4 with Bannerlord!

I think having a separate boost capacitor for S and M-Class ships would really make them stand out. Giving the AI more options to use boost would really make combat interesting for these classes of ships. No more, I got hit, my shields are down to 95%, I'd better boost and knock those down to 50% - just to be sure lol. Now it'd be, my shields are down, NOW I'll boost to escape.

The whole, "I cannot use my speed when I really need my speed" thing has always struck me as an odd choice.

[GCU Grey Area]

I always thought, and suggested in the dim and distant past, that boost drawing on the Weapon capacitor might be an alternate idea. I.e. When I'm boosting I'm evading / fleeing, not shooting. Sure, the weapon bar is supposed to be cooling rather than energy. However, as I understand it, it's still a "pool" of sorts and could be drawn on for boost.

Not terrible idea, have played several games over the years which allowed energy to be moved between engines, shields & weapons as needed. Was always quite a fun mechanic. However, weapon energy -> boost would not work particularly well for the the way I use boosters in X4. Mostly use boost to minimise incoming fire while flying towards an enemy (rather than for running away). Would not be helpful to get on the tail of an enemy only to find that my guns would not shoot because all their energy had been boosted away. That's precisely the time when I need weapon energy the most & somewhat depleted shields are of far less importance because the enemy's guns are now pointed in entirely the wrong direction. Perhaps there should be a key (or configurable setting for AI ships) to control where boosters are drawing their energy from?

[Scoob]

Not terrible idea, have played several games over the years which allowed energy to be moved between engines, shields & weapons as needed. Was always quite a fun mechanic. However, weapon energy -> boost would not work particularly well for the the way I use boosters in X4. Mostly use boost to minimise incoming fire while flying towards an enemy (rather than for running away). Would not be helpful to get on the tail of an enemy only to find that my guns would not shoot because all their energy had been boosted away. That's precisely the time when I need weapon energy the most & somewhat depleted shields are of far less importance because the enemy's guns are now pointed in entirely the wrong direction. Perhaps there should be a key (or configurable setting for AI ships) to control where boosters are drawing their energy from?

I do agree with much of what you're saying, however, drawing on weapons power vs. shield power was just a compromise. For me, a fully separate boost pool makes far more sense.

Here's the thing, dog fighting - or general combat in S and M-Class ships - can be quite fun. However, it's appeal is limited because it is limited, there's little finesse. As a player, we have some advantages - mainly that we can strafe reliably, whereas the AI really doesn't so much. As such, I usually don't fly smaller ships myself, once I have something better. At the moment, I tend to sit on one of my Carriers or Destroyers and watch them do their thing. I might jump into a smaller ship to go somewhere - I have teleportation now, so that'll only ever be to a Faction station - such as to speak to a Faction Rep or some mission-related thing, but I'm not dog-fighting.

I think developing the tactics and tools available to "Fighter Pilot" style play would be a real boon to gameplay. Deeper mechanics - such as the separate boost energy pool - and perhaps even a limited ability to bias Engines / Weapons / Shield like in many other games, might make this aspect of the game significantly more engaging. I for one would love that.

The scale and range of things you can do in X4 is vast but, sometimes, it perhaps leaves some aspects feeling underdeveloped. This isn't a slight towards the devs, but just the nature of such a wide and ambitious title as X4. However, that doesn't mean it wouldn't benefit from changes.

For me personally, changing how boost works - separate energy pool - would be quite transformative to how I play. Currently, in face-paced combat, once you're shields are down, your options are limited. You can go evasive and hope to buy enough time without being hit to engage travel drives and flee. What you cannot do however is a quick boost away and return.

Now, for transparency, I play using the VRO Mod. This means projectile speeds are a lot faster and more likely to hit, making regular evasive flying somewhat less effective. It still works, but you perhaps need a little more distance from what's shooting at you due to shot speeds. To balance this, shields are better, but charge more slowly, yet are not subject to the shield recharge delay after being it. This make fighter combat much more visceral and intense, as a mistake can more readily lead to death. I love it, game is MUCH harder. No more starting Elite Vanguard, force a Corvette to bail - new ship, first few minutes of gameplay. No that starting ship would be owned by such a vessel. Player skill and advantages (strafe) are a factor sure, but ship class is much more significant. If a Fighter that'd lost shields and was taking hull damage was still able to boost, it'd be transformative. Additionally of course, this would add to the repertoire of moves for all AI Pilots, making battles that much more interesting.

What Ships / Engines should have this separate boost pool? Should it apply to all ships? Should it be just military ships, or should it solely depend on what Engines and Thrusters are fitted? Any sort of boost behaviour lends its self better to smaller ships, and that's what I'd embrace for this mechanic if it were me.

Currently, there are other issues with ship AI and combat. The most glaring one for me is with my Carrier-Launched Fighters. Generally, these work GREAT. They engage travel drives instantly, arrive NEAR the target, their ability to get into the fight is near flawless. Once engaged the Pilot's level has a noticeable impact of their performance. In numbers - I generally have a dozen per Intercept wing - they gang up on enemies fantastically. However, their major weakness is how they behave when being shot. Initially, with a reasonably good pilot at least, they'll go evasive. That spiral pattern they do is very effective at avoiding fire, even with VRO's faster projectile speed. Not so good vs. beams of course. It's when they hit that "I'm damaged enough to flee" stage that things break. Sadly, something is a bit messed up here. I'd say that most of my Carrier-Launched Fighter losses are due to this... When a ship decides it's going to flee, it doesn't just flee, it comes to a dead stop, sits there for a moment and only then actually starts to flee. However, in intense fighter vs. fighter combat that's too long. From a player perspective, it simply looks like my ship gives up. It's in a fight, it gets hit a few times, then it slows to a stop and dies quickly. THIS behaviour certainly needs to be addressed, as it's nothing short of broken currently.

With this current weakness / bug in the AI, a boost pool that does not rely on that (depleted) shield might help. If a ship could just BOOST at that "shall I flee?" moment, it'd buy it some time at least. Perhaps it still needs to flee, but that boost had allowed it to escape immediate death, and time to calculate that escape vector, if it still decides it needs it.

I would LOVE boost to have its own capacitor / energy pool / fuel tank, call it what you will. This would be great for smaller ships. For Capital Ships, well, if they had their own "emergency" boost pool, that gave them a decent turn of speed BUT took a long time to recharge, that might be viable. How boost works currently though, it's largely pointless in my view.

[GCU Grey Area]

For me, a fully separate boost pool makes far more sense.

That would be too much of a 'get out of jail free' card for my tastes. When the bonus packs introduced boosters for X3 found I had to mod them specifically to remove alternative fuel sources (so they'd only use shield power) to make them fun. Without that immediate trade-off they were just overpowered. If I get into a situation where my shields have failed it's my own fault & prefer to have to deal with the consequences.

Here's the thing, dog fighting - or general combat in S and M-Class ships - can be quite fun. However, it's appeal is limited because it is limited, there's little finesse. As a player, we have some advantages - mainly that we can strafe reliably, whereas the AI really doesn't so much. As such, I usually don't fly smaller ships myself, once I have something better. At the moment, I tend to sit on one of my Carriers or Destroyers and watch them do their thing.

That would be far too passive for me. Don't want to just watch a battle, prefer to be right in the middle of it. Like to give my fleet it's orders (adore the queued orders system in X4 by the way), then jump in an S or M so I can fight alongside them. Usually a frigate if there are enemy capitals on the field because boost-launched torps are just far too much fun to miss out on - boost directly towards an enemy capital (usually aiming my ship at a turret or other subsystem), launch the torp at the last possible moment, then twitch the nose up (so I don't slam into the side of it) & hit the boost again to get clear of it's turrets. Absolutely thrilling. No way I'm staying on one of the capitals when I could be doing that instead. As for finesse, big part of that for me is managing my energy reserves, choosing when to boost & when to conserve energy for shields. Without that element it would be far less engaging.

[Scoob]

That would be too much of a 'get out of jail free' card for my tastes. When the bonus packs introduced boosters for X3 found I had to mod them specifically to remove alternative fuel sources (so they'd only use shield power) to make them fun. Without that immediate trade-off they were just overpowered. If I get into a situation where my shields have failed it's my own fault & prefer to have to deal with the consequences.

With how vanilla boost works, I'd agree, as it's a massive, near instant boost of speed. However, with how VRO balances it, things are a little different. Acceleration is significantly slower - but you can still certainly appreciate the rapid increase in speed - and the duration is longer with a slower shield drain. I much prefer this balance myself. For example, when in a fighter myself - or watching AI do it - a ship may well chose to boost, but it's still under fire. It's just one more tool to combine with evasive manoeuvres to escape, and it's far from guaranteed to do so. VRO really spiced up combat for me, I'd not be without it. The AI seems to generally work pretty well with it.

I stand by that a separate boost pool would make for some interesting options. I don't like how, quite often, the ship that fires first wins. Initial volley takes down the shields - so no boosting - then the ship cannot really escape. Kills can happen too fast, especially as the AI isn't really spacially aware, but just reactive. So, it has to be hit to evade, it won't see that the current head-on joust isn't going to go its way, or that there's a stream of fire incoming. The much slower shot speed in vanilla gives additional leeway, but that depends very much on the weapon.

There was a mod for one of the earlier X3 games. It was called "Fight Command Mk3" IIRC (though there were other mods that added an item of the same name too). These ships were amazing. A ship would be aware of incoming shots and have a darn good go at avoiding them. We've never seen anything quite like it since.

If AI controlled ships were more aware of incoming fire before it hit them, were able to actively use thrusters to strafe, and had a separate energy pool for boost, combat would be amazing. There would still be a trade-off, even with a separate boost pool. I.e. do you use it during your approach to gain weapons range / shot speed (I do this too btw, it is cool) or save it for the fight, or keep it in reserve until you absolutely HAVE to get out of there in a hurry. A finite boost pool, with a slow recharge, would enable a decent balance. You could even have it as a semi-limited resource, so a ship would have to dock to replenish it... that might be a bit harsh though lol.

Basically, I want something the AI can utilise well, not just me. I know that if I get a ship's shields down, it's basically done, no surprises. Its survivability chance is very low. Allowing a ship to escape at that point - when I could of course choose to use my boost to catch up to it - make things interesting. There's fun to be had destroying target after target in quick succession, exploiting the AI's weaknesses and the player's advantages. That's cool. However, the prolonged dog-fight vs. a single foe can be supremely satisfying too. I only get that when the target heavily out-classes me, and I have to exploit all the tricks to out-match them. I'd love to be able to go toe-to-toe with an AI (5*) in a similarly spec'd ship and not be confident of the outcome...

I just wish there was a Mod that removed shield drain from boosting, so we could experience it directly, and see how the AI deals with it. VRO reduces the rate of drain, but active shields are still needed to boost, and boost drains shields far faster then their best modded recharge.

Anyway, fun discussion