Quick question about Scrapping

[Koizuki]

Hey everyone,

I'm about to get into the ToA stuff now in my first game (pretty much only explored the sectors and nabbed the Erlking so far, but put all the plots on hold until I was finished with some other stuff,) and I'm looking into getting some scrapping started.

I've planned out a modest station using the station calculator, but in doing some research about it, I came across what seems to be a long-standing bug with how the Manticore AI works with regard to a station with multiple scrap processors.
Specifically, it looks like Manticores will pick a random processor to deliver to, and if it's busy, it just...sits there instead of trying another one. That said, the threads I've found detailing this are all quite old, and I haven't been able to find anything more recent.
As such, is this still a problem in v6.20, or has this AI logic been fixed by now? Ideally I'd rather just have the one station with several processors, but if this issue does still exist, then I'd need to figure out if I should just separate them into a half dozen single-processor stations, or maybe try and get away with a couple sets of 2-3-processor stations.

Thanks.

Edit:
Now that 7.0 is officially available for beta testing, is anyone who is participating in it able to test how well the supposed changes to the scrapping system work?

[NilusBavarius]

I remember a statement from one of the DEV's a couple of weeks ago that they've basically rewritten much of it, including fixes found in the multitude of mods which attempted to fix it,...
so, fix in a future build afaik

Edit:

Found it...

I've spent the last couple of days looking into various problems with the process and 7.0 will bring major changes to the script that will greatly improve the reliability of scrap deliveries. It'll feature a queuing system and coordination between delivering tugs - partly inspired by the various mods that exist to achieve something similar (though it won't need to use MD to do it) - and it will also use a more robust movement pattern.
Once 7.0 is ready for a public beta (no ETA yet) this will be one of the areas we'll want feedback on. (I'm afraid the script changes are so extensive that they are highly likely to break the existing mods, though they should hopefully also not be necessary anymore)

[Koizuki]

Oh, that is quite interesting; thanks for digging that up. Looking up the original thread, it appears to have been a thread I did read through before, but this was apparently before that dev posted that update to it.

In that case it sounds like it does currently still exist in a bugged state, but hopefully will be fixed by the next patch.. In which case, maybe I can just wait until then to begin setting up the scrapping stations.

On a related note, does a Manticore towing a cube attempt to enter travel drive? I wasn't sure if I should equip them with some TER drives for instant acceleration, or if they worked better with the SPL engine's faster base speed.

[NilusBavarius]

...
On a related note, does a Manticore towing a cube attempt to enter travel drive? I wasn't sure if I should equip them with some TER drives for instant acceleration, or if they worked better with the SPL engine's faster base speed.

Yes, they use Travel drives.

I am personally using Argon Allround Engines for the middle ground, and it is also available at the Avarice Wharf.

While they are towing, they are quite slow and behave like a tanker... or a Tug, trying to tow a Tanker.

If en route without a wreck or cube, they're quite nimble.

Terran drives are very fast in travel drive, but underperform in normal cruise mode... so it boils down to personal preference and the overall routes they are taking.

If you really want to go full meta on that, try to get some comparable datapoints for "average distance in Travel/Cruise", based on the average route and calculate which drives gives you the lowest overall delivery time.

Edit: more words, better words, less fat-fingering

[Scoob]

For scrap processing I've found a way that works best for me. Basically, rather than having a Station with several Scrap Processors and Recyclers, I set up several stations with just ONE Scrap Processor. I then export the scrap (Mining ships, it's Solid class cargo) to a central Recycling Station with lots of recyclers. Said Recycling station will also have one Scrap Processor to maximise production. With just ONE Scrap Processor to deliver to, returning Manticores don't get confused. They're still way too slow and still faff around wasting time each trip, but it's no where near as bad as when there are multiple Scrap Processors.

Currently, in an area high in wrecks, I have three stations that JUST Process Scrap, exporting it to a single station that processes Scrap and turns it into Claytronics and Hull Parts.

Usually, at a single station, with a constant flow of wrecks / scrap cubes, one Scrap Processor can keep two Recyclers fed. With my current set up I have four Scrap Processors over four stations keeping NINE Recyclers (all on one station) fed, with a slight surplus. Stored scrap at that final station is gradually increasing. Each station has ten Manticores working for them and I have two Teuta Compactors working in the sector, eating wrecks and pooping out scrap cubes. Works really well. Needs lots of power though.

I set up the Station that does both Scrap Processing and Recycling into Hull Parts and Claytronics FIRST - one Processor, two recyclers - to get things going. I then expand things adding more stations, more modules (power and recycling) using the Hull Parts and Claytronics I produce. This way, I'm building for free basically - zero credit cost after buying the Blueprints and paying for the plot (if needed). It's a slower way to build vs. buying it in, but if you queue it all up, assign ships to move resources as appropriate, it'll tick along building up while you do other stuff. This is what I did.

Along with the scrap processing and recycling, I also set up a station (fully built by me) to produce Food and Medical Supplies. The recycling Station benefits from Workforce efficiency bonuses, the Scrap Processing Stations do not. Finally, I add my own Shipyard/Wharf station, full of ships & modules built by the Closed-Loop method. I can build a good range of ARG stuff, but not Destroyer Main batteries, which i my current weakness. However, I can field substantial military and civilian ships - all free of credit costs.

[Koizuki]

Thanks guys; I did figure I could test it eventually, but it'd be a while since I don't have any scrap stations set up yet. I was trying to get some prep-work out of the way with planning out its logistics.
I probably will have to ultimately run some testing anyway because I don't know how slow they get down to when towing, and knowing that they do still attempt to use travel drives means I'll have to gauge how far away they haul from, which I have no idea about yet.
As far as the Argon drives, they're fine too, but I don't need to be limited to what's available at wharves since I am planning on just building them from my own shipyards, and I can get basically any blueprint I want (aside from the ToA/RIP specific stuff, I guess. I did buy whatever BP's from VIG already, though.)

Basically, rather than having a Station with several Scrap Processors and Recyclers, I set up several stations with just ONE Scrap Processor. I then export the scrap (Mining ships, it's Solid class cargo) to a central Recycling Station with lots of recyclers. Said Recycling station will also have one Scrap Processor to maximise production. With just ONE Scrap Processor to deliver to, returning Manticores don't get confused. They're still way too slow and still faff around wasting time each trip, but it's no where near as bad as when there are multiple Scrap Processors.

Yeah, this setup was what I was asking about originally in this thread, because I didn't really want to make multiple single-processor stations due to that AI issue. Apparently it's going to be fixed in v7.00 though, so I may try and hold off until then, hoping it works.

Otherwise my plan was to place 7 processors over in Silent Witness XII, as it supposedly has a large amount of naturally-regenerating scrap. I already have a Trade Station in Silent Witness I as well, acting as the link (alongside my Second Contact one) to Avarice.
I would shuttle the scrap from SW12 to SW1, and from there to Avarice, where I planned to set up a station with 8 Commonwealth Recyclers and 6 Terran Recyclers, staffed with TER crew to sidestep the issue of delivering Food Rations through Windfall (granted, that's not an issue anymore since I'm at +30 with VIG, but the infrastructure to support that amount of TER crew is already built, so I might as well continue with that plan.) Finally, I'd have a couple Shuyakus shuttling the reclaimed resources out from Avarice back over to SW1 and Second Contact, then they'd distribute it to the rest of my trade network.

[NilusBavarius]

...
in Silent Witness XII, as it supposedly has a large amount of naturally-regenerating scrap...

It's the best sector in the whole network, have my own Recycling abomination built there.

Just a tip for the Teuta, so it doesn't wander off too far or even trying to dismantle a SCA Destroyer next to the mandatory Kha'ak Hive:

You can attach it as Subordinate in the "trade for commander's build storage" role and set a manual "dismantle scrap" order with radius which repeats itself in a loop since the normal "find scrap for commander" only works for Manticores (at least in 6.0).
This way you can get it buried as sub in the asset overview and it will never ever wander off into trouble.
Since it is a radius command, adding a couple of fighters in a def pos role ontop helps greatly against the constant harassment (alternatively directly assigned to the Teuta in "intercept for commander" role)

Edit:
Or just order it to do it's work right next to the station to reduce travel time for the Manticores.

[Scoob]

Tell ya what, if v7.00 does indeed sort out the issue with Manticores delivering scrap, my scrapping operations are going to go into overdrive!

If you just observe a single Manticore for one round trip, you can really appreciate how much time is wasted. Getting too a wreck, well, they're pretty prompt at that. However, they'll then wait an extended period before they return. They then appear to give up on using their travel drive at significant distances from the Station - this can be countered by building close to a gate - if they're grabbing wrecks from outside the sector. One of the reasons I have the Teuta's working locally (0 sector range) is to encourage only local collection, though Manticores do still sometimes wander elsewhere. Then, once the Manticore is back near the station, it can bumble around for ages once again. I'd suggest that at least ten minutes are wasted for trip. Having more Manticores than you really should need helps to a degree, but can sometimes seem to cause more jams.

So, yeah, really looking forward to any improvements v7.00 brings. Scrapping is fun - my entire economy is built around it in my current game - so it'll be great if it work a bit more smoothly.

Random ponder: As Claytronics is supposed to be some sort of smart, programmable material, it'd be pretty cool if, off the base of the current scrapping mechanic, we had modules that could turn Claytronics (and lots of energy) into OTHER wares. Imagine being able to produce some Advanced Electronics (almost universally scarce and in demand) from excess Claytronics... Just a random thought, as I was typing this reply...

[Koizuki]

Just a tip for the Teuta, so it doesn't wander off too far or even trying to dismantle a SCA Destroyer next to the mandatory Kha'ak Hive:

You can attach it as Subordinate in the "trade for commander's build storage" role and set a manual "dismantle scrap" order with radius which repeats itself in a loop since the normal "find scrap for commander" only works for Manticores (at least in 6.0).
This way you can get it buried as sub in the asset overview and it will never ever wander off into trouble.
Since it is a radius command, adding a couple of fighters in a def pos role ontop helps greatly against the constant harassment (alternatively directly assigned to the Teuta in "intercept for commander" role)

Edit:
Or just order it to do it's work right next to the station to reduce travel time for the Manticores.

Thanks for the tip, I'll try and keep that in mind, althought I do hope this is also going to be fixed in v7.00 if that's true. I feel like I read that it was working properly somewhat recently, but I can't remember the specifics so I may have to go do some digging again to see if I've just misremembered.
I do plan on at least giving them all a blacklist to keep them inside Silent Witness XII, so there shouldn't be any issue with them wandering outside of that place. Only issue then is defending against the Kha'ak hive in there (they've somehow managed to destroy multiple SCA/HAT stations in there already.)
I'll try and figure out something reasonable there, as assigning a squad specifically to protect them full time sounds a bit nuts (though not impossible, as I think 2-3 Kuraokamis each should be able to handle any Kha'ak probes,) but I can't really stop them from getting too close to the hive itself. I basically have to hope that there's enough scrap regeneration near the jump gate to keep them satisfied and stuck in that part of the map.

Tell ya what, if v7.00 does indeed sort out the issue with Manticores delivering scrap, my scrapping operations are going to go into overdrive!

If you just observe a single Manticore for one round trip, you can really appreciate how much time is wasted. Getting too a wreck, well, they're pretty prompt at that. However, they'll then wait an extended period before they return. They then appear to give up on using their travel drive at significant distances from the Station - this can be countered by building close to a gate - if they're grabbing wrecks from outside the sector. One of the reasons I have the Teuta's working locally (0 sector range) is to encourage only local collection, though Manticores do still sometimes wander elsewhere. Then, once the Manticore is back near the station, it can bumble around for ages once again. I'd suggest that at least ten minutes are wasted for trip. Having more Manticores than you really should need helps to a degree, but can sometimes seem to cause more jams.

So, yeah, really looking forward to any improvements v7.00 brings. Scrapping is fun - my entire economy is built around it in my current game - so it'll be great if it work a bit more smoothly.

v7.00 is supposed to bring the fixes at least.. NilusBavarius posted a quote from who I assume is a dev, and it originated from this thread if you'd like to check out their entire response.

In particular, it does seem like they acknowledge the movement issues as well, though I'm not sure they mentioned anything about excessive wait times (if it's not related to being stuck waiting on a 'busy' scrap processor.)
As for the giving up on travel drives and movement quirkiness, the dev mentioned this:

The observation that the distance between the towed object and the opening of the furnace of the scrap processor is causing issues (especially when tugs approach at high speed) is one we've made as well. The tugs are finishing their movement when they are close to the desired position (roughly 2 seconds before arriving) which will be further away from the target the faster they were going, this can result in them being more than 1km away from the furnace opening.

This sounds to me like it might actually be better if you give them slower travel drives, because then "2 seconds away" at that speed ends up being significantly closer to the processor. I can't test this for obvious reasons, but if you guys would like to see what happens if you give them, say, SPL Combat Drives or something, perhaps even modded with a green Nudger mod, it might be interesting to see if they might end up completing their trip faster. I'm unsure if they will adjust this logic in v7.00, but the dev did use the phrase "more robust movement pattern."

Random ponder: As Claytronics is supposed to be some sort of smart, programmable material, it'd be pretty cool if, off the base of the current scrapping mechanic, we had modules that could turn Claytronics (and lots of energy) into OTHER wares. Imagine being able to produce some Advanced Electronics (almost universally scarce and in demand) from excess Claytronics... Just a random thought, as I was typing this reply...

This may be interesting, but I doubt they'll ever give us anything like this kind of resource-alchemy. I understand where you're coming from though, because I just started dipping my toes into terraforming, and holy heck, those Advanced Electronics requirements are eye-watering. And every other requirement, for that matter.

[Tomonor]

Hey everyone,

I'm about to get into the ToA stuff now in my first game (pretty much only explored the sectors and nabbed the Erlking so far, but put all the plots on hold until I was finished with some other stuff,) and I'm looking into getting some scrapping started.

I've planned out a modest station using the station calculator, but in doing some research about it, I came across what seems to be a long-standing bug with how the Manticore AI works with regard to a station with multiple scrap processors.
Specifically, it looks like Manticores will pick a random processor to deliver to, and if it's busy, it just...sits there instead of trying another one. That said, the threads I've found detailing this are all quite old, and I haven't been able to find anything more recent.
As such, is this still a problem in v6.20, or has this AI logic been fixed by now? Ideally I'd rather just have the one station with several processors, but if this issue does still exist, then I'd need to figure out if I should just separate them into a half dozen single-processor stations, or maybe try and get away with a couple sets of 2-3-processor stations.

Thanks.

Can confirm - we are aware of this issue and a fix is in order.

[NilusBavarius]

... , but I can't remember the specifics so I may have to go do some digging again to see if I've just misremembered.

If you can find it again I'd love to have a read on how they changed it.

I do plan on at least giving them all a blacklist to keep them inside Silent Witness XII, so there shouldn't be any issue with them wandering outside of that place.

That's actually what I tried at first but for some reason they still wandered off 100-200 km into the far corners of the sector, because some SCA Destroyer (popped by KHK) seems to be more "lucrative/efficient/tasty" to dismantle than an old environmental wreck just 13 km in front of the Station. I am referring to the Teuta here, not the Manicores.

[Koizuki]

If you can find it again I'd love to have a read on how they changed it.

So, I managed to dig up a couple of the threads I read through a couple weeks back when I was looking into this stuff (among other things.)
I don't know that it was ever "fixed" per se, but some people did supposedly find a workaround to assign it to a station, but some also claimed it didn't quite work for them (but they were vague in describing what exactly they attempted to do.)
An example is this thread from the Steam forums where the workaround is to select the Teuta along with a Manticore, then assigning both to a station via Salvage for Commander simultaneously.

This workaround is also described in this Steam Workshop guide titled "A Scrappy Guide on Scrap" which supposedly is up-to-date with v6.20.
Under the section "The Ships," the author writes:

Currently you can't assign a Teuta to "Salvage for Commander" on a station by itself. To get around this limitation you can group it with a Manticore then assign it or expand the salvage group(Alpha,Beta,Gamma, etc) then assign it to that group.

They then provide a couple screenshots describing the process visually.

I referenced this guide when I was calculating out the size of my stations, since the numbers provided by the Station Calculator for the Scrap modules appeared to be off (and also doesn't have a way to test scenarios where you force the Recyclers to only output one of the two resources, which changes the input Energy Cell requirements.)

As I don't have any scrapping set up yet in my game, I cannot test any of these things, but perhaps one of you can give it a try and see if it actually works.

All that said...

Can confirm - we are aware of this issue and a fix is in order.

Thank you for the confirmation!
As a followup, if I may, would v7.00 also include any changes/adjustments/fixes to the Teuta issues just described, or are they still largely the same (essentially requiring the aforementioned workaround to keep the ship list clean?)
Would it also be possible to control operational radii via the Station Manager interface for salvage ships?

Thanks!

[blackphoenixx]

Otherwise my plan was to place 7 processors over in Silent Witness XII, as it supposedly has a large amount of naturally-regenerating scrap.

My recommendation for your first scrapping station would be Windfall IV. Not only is it closer to Avarice, there's also always a couple of RIP Teuta's there so you don't need to buy your own (they're pricy).
I currently have 4 single-processor stations with 3 Manticores each in that sector and there's still more than enough scrap cubes around to build more.

Random ponder: As Claytronics is supposed to be some sort of smart, programmable material, it'd be pretty cool if, off the base of the current scrapping mechanic, we had modules that could turn Claytronics (and lots of energy) into OTHER wares. Imagine being able to produce some Advanced Electronics (almost universally scarce and in demand) from excess Claytronics... Just a random thought, as I was typing this reply...

You can already do that by exploiting the ability to switch build methods. All you need is ToA for Closed Loop economy and an S/M wharf or equipment dock.
Set the build method to Closed Loop, equip a Pulsar (or several) with mk2 bolt, switch to Universal and remove them to get Advanced Electronics.

Together with the Terran build method you can also transmute claytronics into computronic substrate or create ecells ex-nihilo and transform them into pretty much anything else.

[Koizuki]

My recommendation for your first scrapping station would be Windfall IV. Not only is it closer to Avarice, there's also always a couple of RIP Teuta's there so you don't need to buy your own (they're pricy).

Ah, thanks for the tip; Although at this point for me, price isn't really an issue since I think I already have the blueprints for it and can simply produce my own.
I think I originally picked Silent Witness XII because of some "early-game" tips to avoid VIG areas due to their weird illegal wares tripping some people up. I also figured if I ended up putting up a scrap processor over in the nearby Hatikvah's Choice I by that Xenon gate, it could be combined over into my Silent Witness I trade station as well. Of course this didn't pan out, as I ended up having to clear that whole section of the galaxy for that one plot anyway.

You can already do that by exploiting the ability to switch build methods. All you need is ToA for Closed Loop economy and an S/M wharf or equipment dock.
Set the build method to Closed Loop, equip a Pulsar (or several) with mk2 bolt, switch to Universal and remove them to get Advanced Electronics.

Together with the Terran build method you can also transmute claytronics into computronic substrate or create ecells ex-nihilo and transform them into pretty much anything else.

You know, I did actually have a thought to try this, but had assumed maybe the devs thought about this loophole already and maybe the game "remembered" which setting/resources went into the item originally, and never actually bothered trying.
This is interesting to learn that they apparently didn't.

[blackphoenixx]

You know, I did actually have a thought to try this, but had assumed maybe the devs thought about this loophole already and maybe the game "remembered" which setting/resources went into the item originally, and never actually bothered trying.
This is interesting to learn that they apparently didn't.

You only get back half the materials it'd take to construct whatever it is so it's far from efficient, but it's still pretty useful for high-tier mats like Advanced Electronics and Weapon Components.
It also lets you "deliver" missing wares for shipbuilding to NPC wharfs (since they get back half the mats too when you remove a piece of equipment there) or transfer wares from an NPC equipment dock to a wharf/shipyard.

[NilusBavarius]

Greetings,

As I don't have any scrapping set up yet in my game, I cannot test any of these things, but perhaps one of you can give it a try and see if it actually works.

Will do some testing within the next sessions and come back to you with the results.
Currently the weather is just too nice to spend the majority of time in front of a computer screen, so it may take some time until then.

Cheers

[Koizuki]

You only get back half the materials it'd take to construct whatever it is so it's far from efficient, but it's still pretty useful for high-tier mats like Advanced Electronics and Weapon Components.

Ah, is this detailed anywhere? That's slightly less imbalanced, although I was under the impression that it was a full refund so I've been a bit more liberal with swapping out equipment on my ships to test loadouts assuming I wasn't losing anything in doing so. Granted I guess it's not a big deal in the end, as I'm continuously generating them anyway, and couldn't really track how much I was getting back each time because it just all went into "the pile."

I suppose if I'm desperate for something like Advanced Electronics I can just build and strip a couple Raptors over and over like this.

Will do some testing within the next sessions and come back to you with the results.
Currently the weather is just too nice to spend the majority of time in front of a computer screen, so it may take some time until then.

Thanks! Do let me know how it goes, but yes definitely enjoy your good weather.

[blackphoenixx]

Ah, is this detailed anywhere? That's slightly less imbalanced, although I was under the impression that it was a full refund so I've been a bit more liberal with swapping out equipment on my ships to test loadouts assuming I wasn't losing anything in doing so. Granted I guess it's not a big deal in the end, as I'm continuously generating them anyway, and couldn't really track how much I was getting back each time because it just all went into "the pile."

I suppose if I'm desperate for something like Advanced Electronics I can just build and strip a couple Raptors over and over like this.

A Raptor actually isn't that efficient. The reason i specified bolt Pulsars is that mk2 S bolt gives a lot of advanced electronics per unit, so a small wing of Pulsars is very efficient to transform a couple hundred at a time. And you usually don't need much more than that for a ship, even a capital.

You can look up the recipes in the encyclopedia, just remember that you only get half the listed amount. S ship weapons work well for both adv electronics and weapon components since it's so easy and cheap to swap them dozens at a time.
For turret, shield and engine components capitals are better though.

It's an easy way to get the mats to build Boron ships even if you're otherwise limited to a Closed Loop economy, so you can start producing your own Guppys and Sharks much earlier (and skip the whole Universal ship building infrastructure completely if you want).

For terran materials you should look at missiles and drones (you can generate basically unlimited metallic microlattice and silicon carbide just from ecells by transmuting missiles, in enormous quantities if you use a group of frigates).

[Koizuki]

Ah, yeah I thought of a Raptor because I actually have a greater need for Turret Components rather than Weapon Components in my game at the moment.
I took over quite a few sectors with temporary Administration modules (and nothing else,) and have been fortifying them with some actual defense stations, but the ones I designed need something like 10-11k Turret Components each. Though, thinking about it now, the vast majority of that is probably being consumed by the hundreds of ARG Flak turrets which could be saved by switching to Closed Loop, so I only need them for the PAR L Plasmas...

As far as BOR stuff and Universal recipes, I haven't bothered buying any BP's of the former yet as I'm not sure their instant-travel-drive offsets their abysmal acceleration for getting around (not to mention you basically need every BOR blueprint at once) and for the latter I've already built a self-sufficient production line with both the TER and Commonwealth economies so I have essentially everything available, even Missile and Shield Components that I don't really use. I also usually leave my Shipyard/HQ on Universal build mode simply to consume the thousands of Engine Components and related stuff I have.

In any case I'll keep the Pulsars in mind for Weapon Components as well; thanks!

[Koizuki]

Forgive the bumping of this thread, but now that 7.0 is officially available for beta testing, is anyone who is participating in it able to test how well the supposed changes to the scrapping system work?

Are Manticores able to properly spread out in a station with multiple processing modules now? Are the Teutas able to be assigned to stations normally? Does everything work as expected?

I'm not planning on participating in the beta testing myself, so I'd appreciate any insight from those who are doing so.

Thanks!