Sometimes I feel that modular space stations are not a good idea

[sxh1998]

The indestructible wreckage of the space station module is a truly invincible shield.If improving AI performance is difficult, why not make the wreckage of the space station module destructible.This way, there is no need to worry about the destroyer piloted by AI being blocked by debris and having difficulty adjusting its position when bullets are blocked.You don't have to watch AI waste a lot of torpedoes and missiles either.

[sxh1998]

I think attacking the debris of a space station module can also cause some damage to other complete modules.

[alexthespaniard]

The indestructible wreckage of the space station module is a truly invincible shield.If improving AI performance is difficult, why not make the wreckage of the space station module destructible.This way, there is no need to worry about the destroyer piloted by AI being blocked by debris and having difficulty adjusting its position when bullets are blocked.You don't have to watch AI waste a lot of torpedoes and missiles either.

I think if you don't allow a station to regenerate after being attacked for 30 minutes, that's more than enough.

[sxh1998]

The indestructible wreckage of the space station module is a truly invincible shield.If improving AI performance is difficult, why not make the wreckage of the space station module destructible.This way, there is no need to worry about the destroyer piloted by AI being blocked by debris and having difficulty adjusting its position when bullets are blocked.You don't have to watch AI waste a lot of torpedoes and missiles either.

I think if you don't allow a station to regenerate after being attacked for 30 minutes, that's more than enough.

I agree, the modules that were regenerated during the attack are truly frustrating.Modular space stations are a cool thing, but various issues make them a less impressive idea

[Falcrack]

I agree the station module wreckage should be destructible. They get in the way of destroying the rest of the station far too often.

[Feloidea]

That particular problem could be "easily" (in quotation marks since I haven't the slightest clue on how this coding works and how complex it is) fixed by improving the turret targeting priorities and positioning your ship to get clear firing arcs on remaining station modules. Sadly as it stands turrets have a habit of just stopping their work after destroying a module and it takes some turret command reshuffling to get them firing again, but that's about the only issue I ever had with dismantling stations (though I also haven't tried letting AI piloted ships do that work, I like being hands-on for that kind of stuff).

[sxh1998]

That particular problem could be "easily" (in quotation marks since I haven't the slightest clue on how this coding works and how complex it is) fixed by improving the turret targeting priorities and positioning your ship to get clear firing arcs on remaining station modules. Sadly as it stands turrets have a habit of just stopping their work after destroying a module and it takes some turret command reshuffling to get them firing again, but that's about the only issue I ever had with dismantling stations (though I also haven't tried letting AI piloted ships do that work, I like being hands-on for that kind of stuff).

You are lucky because personally piloting a spaceship to attack the space station is very interesting.

[TroubledRabbit]

I love the modular station building, It satysfies my inner toddler who had not enough LEGO time apparently.

Though, smashing them is kinda frustrating...

[GCU Grey Area]

Also find modular station building immensely satisfying, thoroughly enjoy demolishing them too. Find it's easy enough to avoid destroyed modules getting in the way if I simply move my ships around the station when they start to run out of targets on the side of the station where my fleet started. Typically I'll split my destroyers in to 2 groups & give them a 'fly & wait, then attack' order queue to move them into new positions where they'll have clear line of sight to undamaged modules, while keeping them safely out of range of any remaining enemy turrets on the station, e.g. https://www.dropbox.com/s/86o63fbbvjyrb ... 1.jpg?dl=0

[sxh1998]

I love the modular station building, It satysfies my inner toddler who had not enough LEGO time apparently.

Though, smashing them is kinda frustrating...

I also like modular space stations. What I mean is that the current AI attack behavior on space stations is incomplete. I hope Egosoft can temporarily allow us to eliminate the debris of the modules until they improve the behavior of the AI.

[sxh1998]

Also find modular station building immensely satisfying, thoroughly enjoy demolishing them too. Find it's easy enough to avoid destroyed modules getting in the way if I simply move my ships around the station when they start to run out of targets on the side of the station where my fleet started. Typically I'll split my destroyers in to 2 groups & give them a 'fly & wait, then attack' order queue to move them into new positions where they'll have clear line of sight to undamaged modules, while keeping them safely out of range of any remaining enemy turrets on the station, e.g. https://www.dropbox.com/s/86o63fbbvjyrb ... 1.jpg?dl=0

I often use the method you mentioned. But it should be automatic. And I think making the wreckage destructible is a more easily achievable method than adjusting AI. Of course, this is just speculation, I don't know how to program.

[GCU Grey Area]

I often use the method you mentioned. But it should be automatic.

Very glad it isn't automatic, sincerely hope that never changes. Gives me a fleet command role to play during station demolition; keeping track of which modules have already been destroyed & deciding precisely when & where to move my destroyers to give them best possible line of sight to remaining modules. If all I had to do is issue a single attack order & then just passively watch while the entire station was automatically destroyed I'd get very bored. Would replace something I actively enjoy with something that I'd find rather tedious.

[TroubledRabbit]

it may be fun when you have one station to destroy. It becomes an irritating chore when there is more and fleets on its own are miserable so you cannot just, like the 'real armchair galactic admiral' would do: just give the order and do something interesting. That's a problem.

//EDIT
and there you have got these special stations like xen 'asteroid one' which can act as indestructible and I usually just cheat-delete them when they reach 0 HP and still refuse to die because of some quirk in geometry.

[GCU Grey Area]

it may be fun when you have one station to destroy. It becomes an irritating chore when there is more and fleets on its own are miserable so you cannot just, like the 'real armchair galactic admiral' would do: just give the order and do something interesting. That's a problem.

Really? Doubt many admirals just give a single attack order & then have no further input into how the battle progresses. For me admiral level gameplay is all about devising an attack plan, moving my forces into positions I've chosen for them, ordering them to redeploy to new positions when my assessment is that this will be advantageous, and so on. If fleet gameplay was trivialised to the point where all that was necessary was to give a single attack order it would scarcely be worth bothering with. Just wouldn't be fun anymore. As for number of stations, I use the same approach whether it's a single station, purging a sector, or the systematic genocide of an entire faction. If things are going to explode I want to be there to see it & play an active role in determining how those explosions occur.

[TroubledRabbit]

This is how you kill your subordinated and loose the bigger picture - by microing them and breathing on theirs necks so they are paralyzed and cannot make any sensible decision while you are moving platoons instead or managing corps.

In game we have only 'AI' so it needs babysitting but it could be competent enough to at least aim the guns, get in range (and stay out of range of station) and *keep the bloody formation* while moving and approach at least (apparently the 1st. iteration of Homeworld's level of sophistication is unreachable for modern game).

Sry, but the 'commander of the flotilla' does not manage each singular boat, neither it actually directly command the ship on which he is residing (usually).

[LameFox]

I think ideally they should move around while maintaining range, but if not, having the wrecked parts still carry damage to the station's overall HP pool seems like it would work. This might also help with weird edge cases like Kha'ak installations which the AI seems to really struggle with in high attention.

Shooting the wreckage out of the way could work but then you're having them destroy something that is in theory salvageable just because the AI is dumb.

[jlehtone]

I think ideally they should move around while maintaining range

Yes.

This is not exactly a new issue. In early X3R I had wingmen. The had mass drivers. They did chase a Xenon and shoot at it. The issue back then was I was chasing the same Xenon and I was between the foe and my wingmen. I was not dead (yet) and indestructible, like the modern station modules, but my ship nevertheless did collide with the MD fire. That was the last time I've had wingmen.


So the first point is to not shoot at targets that are behind something that should not be shot at. Some of that is already true? Predicting movement of all objects is naturally a bit too much, so someone moving into line of fire is mostly their own fault.


The second point, a consequence of the first, is to move into position where there are no obstacles on the line of fire. In dynamic situation, where all objects do move or when your ship does boom-and-zoom, this tends to happen eventually.

Station module will not move. Dead station module does not move either. Capital ship that bombards station does not move (much) either. That has been our wish for years, because the moving big slow ships had tendency to boom into the range of station turrets (and Paranid L Plasma does have some range) with not enough life to zoom out of range later. Anyway, Capital and Station is a special case that requires different logic than a dogfight.

What the big ships should do when their current target module explodes is to turn almost 180 and zoom away from the station, move "laterally" and approach from another direction, where some remaining station module is exposed. (Without getting too close eventually.)

Back in 3.x the Phoenix did "fly around" the station (like indians circling cowboys, but slower). Has that logic been totally replaced?

I hope Egosoft can temporarily allow us to eliminate the debris of the modules until they improve the behavior of the AI.

Wasting time and resources on "temporary" is bad. The temps have a bad habit of staying forever, and by nature they are sloppy.

[GCU Grey Area]

This is how you kill your subordinated and loose the bigger picture - by microing them and breathing on theirs necks so they are paralyzed and cannot make any sensible decision while you are moving platoons instead or managing corps.

Remain very sceptical that admirals merely point at something & say 'destroy that', then leave it entirely up to their captains to decide individually how to accomplish that order, without even the merest hint of a battle plan or any coordination between ships.

In game we have only 'AI' so it needs babysitting but it could be competent enough to at least aim the guns, get in range (and stay out of range of station) and *keep the bloody formation* while moving and approach at least (apparently the 1st. iteration of Homeworld's level of sophistication is unreachable for modern game).

That's what my destroyers do during station demolition operations. The 'fly & wait, then attack' order sequence tells them where I want them to shoot from & what to shoot at. As long as the fly & wait's at an appropriate distance the enemy station doesn't even get to shoot back & there's very little movement except that needed to aim at a new target as each module is eliminated. These days you don't even need particularly good captains to get them to stay at range - apparently the game cheats & assumes max skill level for the purpose of determining optimal firing distance for player-owned ships.

Sry, but the 'commander of the flotilla' does not manage each singular boat, neither it actually directly command the ship on which he is residing (usually).

That is not necessary either. Works perfectly well if destroyers are assigned to 2 or more groups, with lead destroyers (usually bombardment role in my fleets) each assigned a bunch of destroyer subordinates (attack role). These groups can then be manoeuvred around the station as necessary (again would recommend a 'fly & wait, then attack' order sequence to keep them clear of remaining station turrets). Only the lead ships need to be given explicit orders, the rest just obey the chain of command.

[Nanook]

...
Sry, but the 'commander of the flotilla' does not manage each singular boat, neither it actually directly command the ship on which he is residing (usually).

No, they don't "manage" each boat, but they do direct them. It's what fleet leaders do. Each ship's captain is far too busy 'fighting' their own ship to be able to see the big picture. Individual captains moving their ships around willy-nilly would lead to mass confusion. And it would probably lead to the damage and destruction of their own ships. It's why admirals exist, to direct the overall operation. In the X4 universe, the player is the admiral since there's no such thing as a player AI admiral. If you fail to perform your admiral duties in a battle, it's your own fault for losses of your ships.

[TroubledRabbit]

No, they don't "manage" each boat, but they do direct them. It's what fleet leaders do. Each ship's captain is far too busy 'fighting' their own ship to be able to see the big picture. Individual captains moving their ships around willy-nilly would lead to mass confusion. And it would probably lead to the damage and destruction of their own ships. It's why admirals exist, to direct the overall operation. In the X4 universe, the player is the admiral since there's no such thing as a player AI admiral. If you fail to perform your admiral duties in a battle, it's your own fault for losses of your ships.

We're gin' OT well...

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well, maybe we were in different Armies once, but commander of my battalion (and that is quite low level of management) would never interfere with the way I was managing my truck column as long as the job was done until (and only) there was some big screw up cooking already. And on such occasion I would be rather crucified by EO (major usually) or learn from the staff srg. new and innovative ways of describing my lack of intelligence and general inability of wiping my arse properly. Because colonels generally have no time for dealing with every mess made by some lt.

On the other hand I had once the boss who was 'deeply engaged' in managing his every subordinate, guess how well this was going.

Battle plans are done *before* the encounter for the reason and everybody involved, to the lowly grunt, in some necessary capacity is informed about the desired outcomes (and possible variants) before the hell will break loose. While doing the task, you do not have time for 'planning', you are executing and adapt praying that your decisions, whatever they are, are these right ones.

But returning to our sheep -> some way of recognition for the ship that its LOS on the target is blocked and it needs to move *keeping the same base parameters* like range, adjustment for the arc etc. would be good.