Any solution for trading food rations an Avarice?

[drowningfly]

I've just spent a lot of time and credits building food ration production in Avarice I. Auto traders refuse to trade any food, presumably because food is an illegal ware under the VIG police authority, despite every other station requiring food and offering max price for it. I've tried traders on local auto-trade and traders trading for the station, setting the sell price to minimum, nothing works. All other goods are tradeded without issue, so I'm sure it's not a setup issue. Food can be traded manually, and I assume, with repeat orders but that doesn't help in supplying all the starving stations of the Avarice sectors.

I can't see an option to tell my traders to ignore illegal ware restrictions so I'm looking for any way to solve the problem and distribute food rations in Averice. I'd be happy to use a mod that fixed it, but can't find any, or modify my save game to make food legal in Avarice if that worked, but I've not found a way to do it.

[Koizuki]

I believe if you become allied with VIG, (or maybe just hit 20+ rep?) they no longer consider it illegal for you to haul those wares through their systems, but I honestly haven't tried it myself. I suppose I could test it since I am at +30 with them in my game, but I can't do that until later tonight. That said, I don't know if your autotraders would realize that since it would technically still be illegal for everyone else.

[drowningfly]

Thanks for the suggestion. I did an Avarice start and I'm currently -30 and at war with VIG. I was enjoying the conflict, but I suppose I could give up and cheat in the reputation if it fixes the traders.

[Baddieus]

I believe if you become allied with VIG, (or maybe just hit 20+ rep?)

I can confirm this one, and do so relatively quickly in my games so that Food & Water are no longer red in my menus.

=Baddieus=

[rudi_pioneer]

Huh, I had no idea that player traders would avoid illegal wares. Can’t tell if above is a bug or works as intended. There’s whole risk vs reward in illegal trade so doesn’t make sense it’s ignored

[Sp0ngeB0b]

I have seen in the files that when searching for a trade if the "hidecargochance" is less than 100 then the trade is no longer considered for an illegal ware. I would then expect that if you were to modify your trade ships with Mirage to have a 100% cargo concealment then the trader should transport the wares. I have not tested this myself though. A far from ideal solution seeing that you would need an exceptional quality chassis mod for every trade ship.

[Sp0ngeB0b]

Another possible but expensive solution would be to claim the sector by out constructing defense stations with administrative centers. That way nothing would be illegal to you. I think that is how the interactions would work.

[GCU Grey Area]

Another possible but expensive solution would be to claim the sector by out constructing defense stations with administrative centers. That way nothing would be illegal to you. I think that is how the interactions would work.

Would also need to destroy admin modules on NPC defence platforms, along with complete destruction of major stations (shipyards etc), in order to seize control of the sectors. Likely to have significant rep consequences, doubtful they'd want to buy food afterwards.

[drowningfly]

I have seen in the files that when searching for a trade if the "hidecargochance" is less than 100 then the trade is no longer considered for an illegal ware. I would then expect that if you were to modify your trade ships with Mirage to have a 100% cargo concealment then the trader should transport the wares. I have not tested this myself though. A far from ideal solution seeing that you would need an exceptional quality chassis mod for every trade ship.

In my searches for a solution, I've seen others report that this does not work, but I haven't tested it myself.

I'm fairly sure this is a bug, as I've read traders work with all other illeagal wares, just not food rations. I have a few minor graphical and QOL mods so there's no point in me submitting a bug report, but I've seen others report it happening on a unmodified save.

I'll confirm that setting relations to VIG to +30 made the ware legal and works as a workaround.

I don't think it's worth being at war with VIG if you are based in Avarace as there are a few other bugs with this senario which make it very frustating. Your own stations force their own subordinate ice miners to drop their cargo. If you have a travel rule to avoid enemy sectors, your ships will override their orders to just sit and die whenever there is a tide, as they have no sector to escape to dispite sitting right outside a station they could easily dock at. If you don't have the travel rule, they'll just fly to the VIG sectors and die anyway. It's a shame, becuase this was otherwise a really fun plot and narrative that I was thoroughly enjoying.

[TroubledRabbit]

Another possible but expensive solution would be to claim the sector by out constructing defense stations with administrative centers. That way nothing would be illegal to you. I think that is how the interactions would work.

you would have to conquer Avarice, too because no matter how the VIG quest ends they still police Avarice system (they, not you).

In the previous games there were licenses for 'controlled substances' (whatever it was in particular Empire) which you could buy. There is also cargo concealment mod (one you get for free at the beginning of smuggler start), but that seems to be cumbersome and a bit costly.

Besides: Avarice 'suffering' is one of the failed and inconsequential design decision. They are not starving. If you bother (as I once did) to build full food/meds/water station in Avarice it is barely visited and not particularly profitable. Demand is too low. Glaring example of nonexistent civilian economy.

[GCU Grey Area]

If you bother (as I once did) to build full food/meds/water station in Avarice it is barely visited and not particularly profitable.

That's true pretty much everywhere in my experience. It's rarely worth building food/meds production unless it's for use by your own stations. There's generally plenty available in the NPC economy, supply often exceeding demand by a significant margin. Suspect this is by design, so players can build their first few stations without having to worry too much about where to get food & meds for their workforce, at least until their stations become particularly large or numerous.

[Koizuki]

I'll confirm that setting relations to VIG to +30 made the ware legal and works as a workaround.

Ah, this is good to know, if this means autotraders were able to transport food successfully here. I didn't get a chance to test it last night as I ran into an unrelated bug and was getting stuff together for a bug report.

That said, as others pointed out, selling food isn't very profitable, but I can understand roleplay aspects of it. Personally, I didn't expect to get VIG to +30 (I didn't realize for a while that they weren't rep-locked) so for my own stations at least, I figured I'd side-step it by using TER habitats instead and shipping them MRE's, which shouldn't be illegal if they only specifically banned the ARG Food Rations.

[TheDeliveryMan]

I'll confirm that setting relations to VIG to +30 made the ware legal and works as a workaround.

It's actually +20 VIG rep and I think you have to go through the promotion ceremony.

[TroubledRabbit]

That's true pretty much everywhere in my experience. It's rarely worth building food/meds production unless it's for use by your own stations. There's generally plenty available in the NPC economy, supply often exceeding demand by a significant margin. Suspect this is by design, so players can build their first few stations without having to worry too much about where to get food & meds for their workforce, at least until their stations become particularly large or numerous.

Well - lack of civilian economy - which leads to lack of goal for the power-players - is that 'glaring hole' in the game I was writing about. It is particularly prominent in the Avarice's case because it is in direct oppositon to the narrative. And this is terrible design or just plainly lack of it. Things do not need to be 'real' but they need to appear as such.

[GCU Grey Area]

Well - lack of civilian economy - which leads to lack of goal for the power-players - is that 'glaring hole' in the game I was writing about. It is particularly prominent in the Avarice's case because it is in direct oppositon to the narrative. And this is terrible design or just plainly lack of it. Things do not need to be 'real' but they need to appear as such.

Really not sure what you mean by this. Plenty of opportunities for Trade in the game's economy. It's where I get most of my credits. It's only the basics (e.g. food, meds, e-cells) that are ubiquitous. Certainly no lack of trade opportunities when it comes to intermediates & end products. Find building materials (hull parts, adv. electronics, etc) are particularly good industries to go into, in high demand for both station building & ship production.

Disagree strongly as regards 'terrible design'. Personally find the Trade aspect of X4 is by far my favourite of all the X games. In previous X games Trade really didn't matter (except as a source of credits for the player) since factions would simply spawn all their ships & stations into existence without needing any resources at all. In contrast there's far more player agency in X4 in this regard - once I've become established I can have a major impact on the fate of a faction simply by adding them to my 'Embargo List' trade rule, while continuing to supply rival factions. Can change the course of an entire war, without any of my ships firing so much as a single shot.

[TroubledRabbit]

Disagree strongly as regards 'terrible design'.

SO, at least we agree to disagree

For me lack of civilian economy (that including planetary trade and production - which the whole tedious and unrewarding process of terraforming would elevate on completely new level, now it's just 'one shot and never do this busy work again') is a serious blow to the whole 'economy thing'. And not only because civ. economy is generally always bigger - someone needs to support the Fleet and the Army - but also it derives the players, at least those interested in, from ability to deal with the intricacies of particular local economies, wares, needs and such.

I am not convinced that Paranid, Teladi, Split and Humans alike just eats the same ibuprofen. The economy is very simplistic (Terran is just bland, but that always was the case, unfortunatelly). It is one more fantasy of 'frictionless capitalism' (by design), shame because the potential is there even without producing new models for factories. Another one of the bad design decision of 'streamlining' was e.g. not treating the parts (shields, weapons etc.) as wares anymore. Factions exists purely in a moneyless fashion because they do not need it which is partially close to the truth (states does not need 'money' they can produce it from a thin air at any moment) but also misses certain level of pop management. And ofc. maintenance issues.

As much as the previous installments were lacking in this departament they somewhat acknowledged it - there were civilian or 'double usage' wares which if obtained properly might give a nice buck. Not mentioning the mods ofc. which enriched that greatly.

Game does not acknowledge at all position of the player which starts as wannabe, becomes a company, goes into multibilion corporation and becomes a faction at some point. Yet still you are offered missions 'fix my satellites' (say this to Tim Cook) and getting a sovereignity over a sector (which should be hudge and risky step) is treated by everybody like 'meh'. If you have a position allowing you to effectivelly starve another state (faction), well that should have meaning.

So, yeah, we can go all the night that way.

[GCU Grey Area]

For me lack of civilian economy (that including planetary trade and production - which the whole tedious and unrewarding process of terraforming would elevate on completely new level, now it's just 'one shot and never do this busy work again') is a serious blow to the whole 'economy thing'. And not only because civ. economy is generally always bigger - someone needs to support the Fleet and the Army - but also it derives the players, at least those interested in, from ability to deal with the intricacies of particular local economies, wares, needs and such.

Suspect the majority of each NPC economy with which we interact should be considered civilian. Doubt the intention is that every faction is a totalitarian government which controls absolutely every ship & station directly. Reckon it's just done that way to keep the game economy manageable by a relatively small dev team. It would add a great deal of complexity & work if each NPC faction had to be divided up into innumerable different companies. As for planetary trade, not convinced it would make much sense. Selling stuff to a planet would be problematic since for most wares planetary production would be cheaper (essentially free life support if nothing else), while transporting stuff made on a planet into orbit would likely add substantially to cost, again making the trade uncompetitive.

I am not convinced that Paranid, Teladi, Split and Humans alike just eats the same ibuprofen. The economy is very simplistic (Terran is just bland, but that always was the case, unfortunatelly). It is one more fantasy of 'frictionless capitalism' (by design), shame because the potential is there even without producing new models for factories. Another one of the bad design decision of 'streamlining' was e.g. not treating the parts (shields, weapons etc.) as wares anymore. Factions exists purely in a moneyless fashion because they do not need it which is partially close to the truth (states does not need 'money' they can produce it from a thin air at any moment) but also misses certain level of pop management. And ofc. maintenance issues.

Yes, the economy is simplified, necessarily so to keep the task manageable. Glad they made the shift from a focus on end products to production chains. Economy in previous X games was very flat, almost everything being made from a single mineral resource + food + energy cells. Find X3's economy much more compelling, with multiple stages between raw resource & end product. Makes sense to me that factions aren't constrained by money because they're mostly backed by planetary populations numbering in the billions, who presumably have exactly the same tech level.

As much as the previous installments were lacking in this departament they somewhat acknowledged it - there were civilian or 'double usage' wares which if obtained properly might give a nice buck. Not mentioning the mods ofc. which enriched that greatly.

Not sure what you mean by "civilian or 'double usage' wares". Secondary resources? They were essentially meaningless, just there to give the illusion of a deeper economy but played no part in production. Remember being overjoyed when items such as Quantum Tubes finally had a practical use in the economy.

Game does not acknowledge at all position of the player which starts as wannabe, becomes a company, goes into multibilion corporation and becomes a faction at some point. Yet still you are offered missions 'fix my satellites' (say this to Tim Cook) and getting a sovereignity over a sector (which should be hudge and risky step) is treated by everybody like 'meh'. If you have a position allowing you to effectivelly starve another state (faction), well that should have meaning.

Getting into position where you have sufficient military and/or economic clout to mess with geopolitics does have meaning. My map currently looks like this. It's rather different to how the map looked at the start. Most of those changes are direct consequences of how I chose to end various plots & my relationship with the different factions (which ones I trade with, do missions for, etc). The map itself acknowledges what I have accomplished in this game.

[TroubledRabbit]

Example of that how the planetary production/trade may works and be significant part of economy (take into account artificiality of the X3) you have for example in Cycrow 'unofficial patch' for X3FL. There were also different mods including that feature in X3 *regardless* of the fake-economy of that game.

In X4 it would be (should be) conceptually easier to do and also would not demand drastic design decisions because the game already have something resembling an economy.
In X3 you've had for example 'personal firearms' which could be traded. Try this with 'gimbals' and other 'wares' existing solely for some quests. In X4 relevant example for the secondary wares is a station population, which at least have some impact (even if it is just a gimmic with flat +% efficiency) but lack some consequences breaking so called 'immersion'.

I am sometimes building the stations which produces nothing and exists solely as a population hubs to make some illusion of 'life' in the game and artificially increase demand for food/meds. It still does not impact consumption of weed/booze nor water, sadly. Inability to build my little Amsterdam in the middle of these stick-in-the-backbone Paranids just breaks my heart.

Some states/factions are kind of authoritarian in design - Terrans always smelled fascist (of a kind), Splits are not fully established dictatorialship only because they are fractured (each faction is effectivelly familial-autocracy) and had not established a secure way to make and progress through the generations some kind of the 'shogunate'. Paranids with their theocratic government and 'indoctrination' are basically 'sentient ants' living under 'benevolent tyrany'. So yes as little as the game explores the topic - there are autocracies in the Space.
Money/credits as a symbolic exchange tokens are important part of managing population's needs and ... well making exchanges on the 'global market'. In the game it's effectivelly 'caveman' approach aka: barter trade.

I perfectly understand the problem of small team and problems connected with that - but it also means that existing approach 'be everything' which results in 'be mediocre in everything' should be seriously thought over. E.g. a lot of effort (this is a curse inherited from XR but XR was a *different* game with different aim) went into 'station walking simulator' with effects ranges from 'dissapointing' to 'miserable'. And there was a lot of hours and resources put into that which could be spent elsewhere.

I do not mind nonsenses which are essential game elements - like the ability to just buy the destroyer (battleship effectively) because you have sold the faction enough Energy Cells to become 'a hero'. I do not think that DOD (any) would be amused much if the e.g. E. Musk just asked for a few Arleigh Burke's with all the stuff, new and shiny. Or Bill Gates asking for a few F35 because he want to make private party and needs some security. That's a part of the base game desing which deserves greasing out - you should not be able to reach the highest levels of recognition in such a trivial way, that asks for special deeds (e.g. quests).

Your map (as many other such accomplishemts) just shows something opposite. Does any (I mean *any*) faction reacted properly for establishment of your power in the game? And by properly I mean attempting to control, curb or outright break your influence not necessarily by military action. Nope. Growth of the player is never challenged and that results with the lack of challenge altogether at some point, which leads to the ideas degenerating the game mechanics to the worst of X3 level (the 'crisis' spawning fleets from nowhere).

[GCU Grey Area]

Example of that how the planetary production/trade may works and be significant part of economy (take into account artificiality of the X3) you have for example in Cycrow 'unofficial patch' for X3FL. There were also different mods including that feature in X3 *regardless* of the fake-economy of that game.

Never played X3FL so can't comment on that. By the time it came along it was few years too late for me to be interested. Too much of X4 I'd miss (station building, economy, queued orders, etc) for me to go back to X3, even a version of X3 with a new plot.

In X4 it would be (should be) conceptually easier to do and also would not demand drastic design decisions because the game already have something resembling an economy.
In X3 you've had for example 'personal firearms' which could be traded. Try this with 'gimbals' and other 'wares' existing solely for some quests. In X4 relevant example for the secondary wares is a station population, which at least have some impact (even if it is just a gimmic with flat +% efficiency) but lack some consequences breaking so called 'immersion'.

Nearest equivalent to personal firearms etc is probably inventory wares. They perform much the same function, irrelevant to the economy but still a source of credits & used for missions.

I perfectly understand the problem of small team and problems connected with that - but it also means that existing approach 'be everything' which results in 'be mediocre in everything' should be seriously thought over. E.g. a lot of effort (this is a curse inherited from XR but XR was a *different* game with different aim) went into 'station walking simulator' with effects ranges from 'dissapointing' to 'miserable'. And there was a lot of hours and resources put into that which could be spent elsewhere.

Think we may disagree about XR too. Thoroughly enjoyed the game & glad many elements were retained in X4, particularly the ability to visit stations in person & walk between ships. Never really got a feeling for scale in X2 or X3, whereas in X4 I can walk all round an S or M ship, then fly to something bigger & now, because I know how big that S or M is (relative to me), I have a far greater appreciation for the scale of larger vessels & stations. The effort that was expended on this was far from wasted as far as I'm concerned - feel much more like a pilot in X4 rather than a sentient spaceship.

I do not mind nonsenses which are essential game elements - like the ability to just buy the destroyer (battleship effectively) because you have sold the faction enough Energy Cells to become 'a hero'. I do not think that DOD (any) would be amused much if the e.g. E. Musk just asked for a few Arleigh Burke's with all the stuff, new and shiny. Or Bill Gates asking for a few F35 because he want to make private party and needs some security. That's a part of the base game desing which deserves greasing out - you should not be able to reach the highest levels of recognition in such a trivial way, that asks for special deeds (e.g. quests).

Guess it depends how you play, For me by the time I can buy the serious stuff I'll have done a LOT of missions for the factions (almost 1000 of them in total in my current game) & proved my worth. Would not mind personally if there were special missions to unlock higher rep levels, but might be a bit unfair for people who just want to trade rather than do missions.

Your map (as many other such accomplishemts) just shows something opposite. Does any (I mean *any*) faction reacted properly for establishment of your power in the game? And by properly I mean attempting to control, curb or outright break your influence not necessarily by military action. Nope. Growth of the player is never challenged and that results with the lack of challenge altogether at some point, which leads to the ideas degenerating the game mechanics to the worst of X3 level (the 'crisis' spawning fleets from nowhere).

Again, depends how you play. It's a sandbox, up to the individual player to decide what sort of challenge they prefer. For myself I don't go in for conquering territory of my own. Instead find the game much more engaging if I pick one or more factions to befriend & have the same allies & enemies. Then I do whatever I can to help my friends prosper & defeat their enemies (hence the Boron invasion of Rhak's Dominion).

[TroubledRabbit]

Never played X3FL so can't comment on that. By the time it came along it was few years too late for me to be interested. Too much of X4 I'd miss (station building, economy, queued orders, etc) for me to go back to X3, even a version of X3 with a new plot.

maybe give a shot some day

Nearest equivalent to personal firearms etc is probably inventory wares. They perform much the same function, irrelevant to the economy but still a source of credits & used for missions.

not really a source of credits as a trade ware. More like gimmick. Mentioned 'firearms' were normal wares in X3 not 'inventory' ones.

Think we may disagree about XR too.

actually no. I like this game I am returning to it from time to time. It was interesting Egosoft journey into rather alien territory of RPG for them (and kind of lost opportunity). Besides awful NPCs (seriously, if you cannot manage to make 'somewhat realistic' and not stylised NPCs at least at the Half-Life-2 level, maybe you should not bother with making them at all - this is actual in X4, too), forced station walking (modded out ofc.) and complete failure of trader/builder part; the stations were actually prettier than these from X4 (and more 'alife'), and some parts of the assets in X4 seems to be just copy-pasta from XR, just nonsensically upscaled in texture size - it was enjoyable experience. Well, after remodding the traditionally Egosoft-bad-desing interface.

The ridiculous Xenon 'alien/bug' design was infused at this point just like the Teladi's 'mushroom-ships'. Which both were dissapointing for me and not really understable as a design choices.
What I actually hate from that game is that enormous Teladi Trade station (fps killer) which was ported (with Xenons and mushrooms) into the X4, absurdly detailed rocks and bad use of fog were the curses in this game, too (another fps killers)
#whyyoudothistome?


I was jumping on that game long after the whole stir in the pot and had no expectation of 'X3.5'. So I was missing the whole shitstorm and dissapointment born in misplaced expectations (and promotion campaign which reinforced that mistake).

It is a shame however, that the base premise of 'one ship but special' gameplay was not realized (I mean: 'Firefly', 'Battlestar Galactica' and such thrope). Wrong ship selected which also lost its 'iconic' turret in the process of adaptation, and complete lack of crucial in such setting deeper interactions with the crew. With slight exception of Yshia railoading you from quest to quest. In many way the game as a whole is more 'proof of concept' than fully realized product.

But I still like it for what it was and was trying to acomplish. (and it's 'prettier than X4 for half the price in demanded power')

Have in mind that I always play on the 'below minimum' hardware. Some of us have got life-obligations barring us from jumping on 'new and shiny' every year or so. I would be actually in the bucket for buing 'low detail DLC' which would spare me the effort of decompressing game files and recompressing textures to the reasonable size and throwing off these nonsense-level LODs for rocks and other stuff not worth looking on.

[Guess it depends how you play, For me by the time I can buy the serious stuff I'll have done a LOT of missions for the factions (almost 1000 of them in total in my current game) & proved my worth. Would not mind personally if there were special missions to unlock higher rep levels, but might be a bit unfair for people who just want to trade rather than do missions.

I do play in numerous ways. Though I prefer - and game does not allows me to do this - 'small nomadic fleet' gameplay. Explorer gameplay is also not really possible. Unfortunatelly if I would be stubborn in such gameplay that would exclude me from HQ and all enjoyment of Boso, research, potential quests etc. Since we have got functional Empyrian ship (crucial NPCs on the ship not on the base) why I cannot just pack my fish and go?

Again, depends how you play. It's a sandbox, up to the individual player to decide what sort of challenge they prefer. For myself I don't go in for conquering territory of my own. Instead find the game much more engaging if I pick one or more factions to befriend & have the same allies & enemies. Then I do whatever I can to help my friends prosper & defeat their enemies (hence the Boron invasion of Rhak's Dominion).

I meant: it is a sandbox with decorations, not reactive forces. A curse of most 'Open World' games ('I did everything, done everything, so.... I't's time for TS XX 'Next Province on the Map') and MMORPGs, the latter can defend themselves by player-to-player interactions. Maybe excluding these '12-y olds' expressing vividly their incredible experiences with my long gone mother. I have got still active friendships from Eve Online built when the game was not filled with minigames. For your gameplay of 'silent power behind the veil' would not be fun if the spurned factions react for your ploys? Not necessarily in direct military intervention, but e.g. paying pirates to harass your trade, making 'accidents' on your stations, sabotaging your relationships etc. That I meant by 'reaction'.

So. As much as yours and mine desires may clash there and there I doubt that you would find enlarged civilian economy and exploration gameplay somewhat damaging for your gameplay style.