[Feedback] 7.00 Economy

[Bored6288]

Hi Ketraar,

Hopefully I am in the right place for this. I wanted to first say I ported over a copy of my existing Terran Cadet save and I've got a station for each of our resources plus the ones that feed workforce in Asteroid Belt and a Trade Station in Jupiter and a EC Station in Mercury feeding them all. Prior to switching to the Beta I was making absolutely nothing out of the Trade Station but since the switch over I've been getting 3-6 Million every maybe 20 or 30 minutes. So clearly something ya'll did fixed something in my situation. So thank you for that.

I have noticed one issue I had in the current normal version persists in the Beta version though: my Substrates Fab station has a L Gas Miner and 4 L Mineral Miners assigned. All Magnetars, all Sentinels, all rigged the same with comparable pilots. The Gas Miner has no problems and I seem to always have enough of the Methane needed (I think that's the gas it uses) in station but with four Mineral Miners assigned I am always out of one mineral or the other it seems. My plethora of survey probes tell me that the distribution of Ore and Silicon in Asteroid Belt as well as the amount present, are about the same: 2.0-2.1 m^3. Given that I'm not sure why all four miners keep going after the same mineral at the same time leading to a repeated shortage of one or the other. I've noticed in the Auto Behavior screen, though it's greyed out presumably because the Manager is issuing the orders and I can't change them without un assigning the ships, that the minerals the ships are being sent after are listed as Ore and Silicon. I wonder if it would be possible to let us knock one of those assignments out somehow? For instance remove the Silicon from two of the Miners and Ore from the other two? It seems to me that if the Manager is looking at the recipe and sees that Ore and Silicon are used at (purely for example) a 1:4 ratio, then she would assign three Miners to one resource and one to the other to try to keep a balance going. I appreciate your time and all the great work you folks are doing. I hope this all helps. Let me know if there's more I can offer.

[Socratatus]

Will there be a greater demand for medical stuff from factions at war?

[HeinzS]

I once made a friend of the Xenon and looked at a XEN SE in Matrix #598, which wants to mine resources in Turquoise Sea IX.
The game status is 7 hours after the start.

[alt3rn1ty]

I have tried deconstructing and deleting stations twice now. Each time the build storage is there and it has the wares in it. However I cannot see any trade offers on it and it's not clear if there's any way I can create some. The wares just chill there until I remove them via a transfer.

Yes my bad, should have made it clear in the text. This is for NPC stations, since player build storages don't get removed you still need to use the transfer wares command as usual. I have adjusted the text in the OP to make this clear now.

Still would be great to assign trade offers to build storage so we don't need to manual empty 100k+ hullparts by hand

@Ketraar - See also this topic ..
viewtopic.php?p=5222352#p5222352

I eventually found out from another player those player build storage can be destroyed (if the manual trading of so many wares seems insurmountable), but some method of being able to auto-sell them would still be good.

[Novvak]

Was there supposed to be any improvements made to "Trade for Commander" under the latest Beta?
Sadly, while playing within the Boron Queendom, I'm seing situations where managers are not working as expected... e.g. a demand for smart chips needed for station drones can "disable" all trade ships, as they are all trying to fill the demand for those wares, where there are none available.
Often there are also many idle ships, when there is a lot of trades the ships could do (I've got several stations producing goods and a trading station that's supposed to buy them - but this is done very inefficiently).
Other time, a ship with 30000 capacity can spent its time carrying 22 missile components to a distant station, when they could do something way more profitable.

[Egifer]

I've started new Terran only playthrough without any mod for 7.0 Beta 2 and there is something really wrong with the economy overal. I have 68 hours in and almost all factions have problem supplying their wharfs. I ordered 24 ares fighters from HOP wharf in holy vision for paranid plot like 10 hours ago and got only 10 yet. Same problem with split, terrans etc. I had to build mining/trading station in saturn 2, oort cloud, asteroid belt and gaian prophecy to keep terran economy running. Am I supposed to do it for every faction? Thankfully the xenon doesn't seem intent to claim other sectors, since the start they didn't manage to claim single sector. They only place their defence platform in neighboring sectors but they are all stuck at 0 hull since the beggining. I intended to turn all the factions against each other through plot choices this playthrough but with how the economy is going they will only be steamrolled by the proped up Terrans.

[Ketraar]

@Ketraar - See also this topic ..
viewtopic.php?p=5222352#p5222352

Yes we have seen it.

I have 68 hours in and almost all factions have problem supplying their wharfs.

Would need a save to have a look.

MFG

Ketraar

[geldonyetich]

My situation has rapidly changed from how it was at 30 hours.

It seems that, contrary to earlier expressed concerns that the higher solar outputs might undermine the energy economy, demand is quite strong. I just finished building a scrap processing megacomplex in The Reach. It sold 6.7M credits worth of energy in a 2 1/2 hour period. Despite that, there's still a 19/energy unit demand as close as Antigone Memorial.

My earlier complaints that scrap seems to be processing slowly are kinda irrelevant when the station self-builds from scrap alone, and I now have 6 scrap recyclers putting out 3,600 hull parts and 1,080 claytronics an hour. Not bad considering I'm getting them practically for free from up to 18,000 scrap metal/hour coming from two scrap processors fed by micro-managed Manticores poaching Xenon SE's from Haktivah's Choice. (I'd leave the Manticores to their own devices, but they're likely to run off and blindly wander into a fatal Xenon encounter, and over a 1M credits apiece is quite a lot to lose.)

Given that most of the starbase's income seems to be energy-cell related, I must as well send those hull parts and claytronics off to build more starbases or expand the megacomplex further.

Save game at 42 hours: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HPVShO ... drive_link

[Egifer]

@Ketraar - See also this topic ..
viewtopic.php?p=5222352#p5222352

Yes we have seen it.

I have 68 hours in and almost all factions have problem supplying their wharfs.

Would need a save to have a look.

MFG

Ketraar

I did play for few hours mitigating some issues with couriers but the situation is still pretty bad

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1iuDpdy ... sp=sharing

[Ketraar]

Stuff

Adjusted same of the values based on this but didnt agree with all or even the values. Should be in in future update.

Thanks to everyone for the feedback and saves, we'll look into those.

Keep the feedback coming, if you have specific cases don't forget to share the save with the details.

MFG

Ketraar

[PersonyPerson]

Stuff

Adjusted same of the values based on this but didnt agree with all or even the values. Should be in in future update.

Thanks to everyone for the feedback and saves, we'll look into those.

Keep the feedback coming, if you have specific cases don't forget to share the save with the details.

MFG

Ketraar

The sunlight changes I have noticed that have changed with the latest Beta 3 are some of the new single sectors. Namely Mi Ton's Refugee (53%), Moo-Kye's Revenge (93%) and Freedom's Reach (221%). I didn't make a record of them all other than the ones I listed in my post on page 3. Did any others change?

Disappointed that the multi-sectors didn't change or were at least evened out a bit more (especially Pious Mists), but previous explanations provided make it understandable. The changes that were made at least, make a lot more sense for those systems and I can see why it was easy to change them because their impact on the NPC economy is next to non-existent.

Thanks for all your work.

[Zekavin]

Mineral balance
I started a new game and I've been looking at ressources location. I plan to set my base in Mist of Artemis (new system). The ressources seems lower at some locations but I doubt it's going to be an issue.

Stellar output
In my main save, if I'm correct, the only place where I have reudced sunlight is Fires of defeat (from 100% to 81%) and Nopileos Fortune II (100% to 78%). I have small scale operations in Nopileos (1 station).

Fires of defeat : I got major salavage operations over there with station with up to 90 production module (excluding habitation etc.). Those have no space at all for extra panels but fortunatly, they were designed to produce extra energy cells.
The design that is more balanced have a small lack of energy (about 3-5k per hour) which is minor.

Nopileo Fortune II : I got a small mining hub there and it's doesn't seems affected at all. However, I used to build my whole operations there in a past save game and it's could damage some player save since it's seems like a popular place to establish a base.

I conclude it's doesn't impact my game at all. A list of "nerfed" system could be useful however. When you have around 150 stations, you don't check the Logical overview of each one once you got everything setup. It's usually an easy fix if you got spare space at least and I don't think there something major like -80% Sunlight somewhere (That's i'm aware of).

Mk 2 weapons price
Advanced electronics have been an issue especially arly game in my seed. I won't complain it's take less of those even if it's require more of something else. Sound like a good change to me.


Improved ware allocation for wharfs, shipyards and equipment docks. / Improved balancing of storage volume for S and M storage modules.

I cannot wait to see how it's work out, but it's seems like a pretty good news to me. I was thinking that some station had a pretty small storage. Also, I guess it's going to help ship purchasing.

Improved miner decision-making
I will see how it's goes for the rest. Clumped miner are wierd and probably not quite efficient. However, it's help to defend defend them from Kha'ak. There too many everywhere in my current game, I will see in my new one.

The fixes seems good overall especially if traders and miners finally do a better job ! It's might reduce some micromanagement of the trades.

[Ketraar]

First off thanks for the feedback to all, much appreciated.

I conclude it's doesn't impact my game at all. A list of "nerfed" system could be useful however. When you have around 150 stations, you don't check the Logical overview of each one once you got everything setup. It's usually an easy fix if you got spare space at least and I don't think there something major like -80% Sunlight somewhere (That's i'm aware of).

Not all sectors are nerfed, so it would be an incomplete list. Cant do much ingame, all I can do is make a X4 map with the numbers that are ingame as of state now, so it can help get an overview.

Disappointed that the multi-sectors didn't change or were at least evened out a bit more (especially Pious Mists), but previous explanations provided make it understandable.

I understand your take, I just dont agree that they need to mandatory have the exact same values. There is a soft pairing between stellar output and mining resources where possible, so in some cases its also trying to avoid making a system good in everything. As we need to have the freedom to have different stats, even if they don't really impact the outcome much.

MFG

Ketraar

[Anomie]

In my game the factions are doing too well.
My galaxy is very war intensive.
ANT is at war against Terrans and have taken the Xenon territories with ease.
Hop is with PAR and ARG in war and have also taken out the xenon completely.
xenon are still constantly beaten back by the factions, with the exception of ZYA.
What's also new is that the sectors around ANT/ARG/TERRANS/HOP/PAR are being built wildly by all factions, but none of the other factions are pushing the other out.
ZYA jobs seem to be broken. I looked for a zya raptor for a long time and couldn't find one. When I see a raptor "2x", it has no S-ships and only a monitor in tow. So I'm not sure whether it's the ZYA economy or the jobs.
Had to intervene and take all sectors up to the Yakis, otherwise Zya would have been overrun in the long run. I still have to have fleets at two points to protect Zya, otherwise ZYA won't do anything. In old games, ZYA at least tried to eliminate CAB's stations when I chose this way. This time Zya has his back to the wall and probably has problems defending his sectors and doesn't even touch CAB stations, which I'll probably have to clear away.

IF I want to make money and sell ships/equipment to factions, ZYA/FRF is by far the one that pays the most, 200-300 mil difference to the rest of the factions, the exception here is ARG in Guiding Star.

Otherwise the entire galaxy suffers greatly from weapons components, these are constantly at a very low level.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/h3u4hpan ... pdw87&dl=0

[VisigothX]

TLDR: Argon gamestart with no expansions enabled. Maybe this is how it is without the expansions (I never played without them, I planned on turning them on one by one to participate with their content gradually), but I've never had the economy get saturated like this before. I think the factions are basically sitting at their faction caps for stations and ships, with nothing to drive demand because Xenon are contained and HOP is neutered.

Some details:

1. I have two self sufficient stations, the HQ and one in ANT Memorial. Both have 2 claytronics and 4 hull part fabs, plus 1 or 2 modules making everything else.
3. I have no mega-fabs with dozens of production chains like I've used in other game starts. The demand isn't there.
3. The economy is grinding to a halt. Everything is filling up. My stations make almost no money and fabs are shutting down. Prices everywhere are rock bottom.
4. I'm pouring whatever I can into building a super-station right now just to make adv satellite components just to have some income, but I'm thinking about turning on the expansions just to get TER and ZYA added into the mix and see if they can cause enough destruction to create some demand for my factories.
5. I can't make enough money to expand or grow and things like shipbuilding seem too far out of reach due to cost.

Not sure if anyone else is having this problem, but it definitely seems like the factions are overtuned for the base game.

[Halpog]

i got a question about the economy and the AI jobs for it

example :
i produce hullparts in antigone ....
splitt faction is running low on hullparts.

how long it needs till the splitt factions starts to send ships to buy my hullparts ?
i mean how long it needs for the AI faction to check after all that iam selling hull parts ?
is there a AI job script that scans every hour ? or 2 hours ?
or how it is handled ?

iam asking because after a much longer play so far ive seen that esspacaly the free famylies have a hugh hole in the production of claytronics and hull parts
because as soon as xenon and zyarth is going to war with them they stuck.....
i tryed to order a raptor from FF faction and for 5 days in RL there wasent any income for hullparts claytronics,and turret parts untill i did that myself.
meaning sending ships ther with repeating orders to sell the materials there
even if FF has the propper factorys to get this stuff . they just cant produce mining ships to support there factorys anymore
but still have thousands of transporters

[PersonyPerson]

i got a question about the economy and the AI jobs for it

example :
i produce hullparts in antigone ....
splitt faction is running low on hullparts.

how long it needs till the splitt factions starts to send ships to buy my hullparts ?
i mean how long it needs for the AI faction to check after all that iam selling hull parts ?
is there a AI job script that scans every hour ? or 2 hours ?
or how it is handled ?

If you have Hull Parts in Antigonid space and and your destination is Split space (for either Zyarth or Free Families), then it's likely is too far away from them in where they'd be interested. I assume the AI follows the same rules as you so that Station subordinates have a max range of 5 sectors. There's also the additional problem that Zyarth is at war with Argon, so even if they could get to you, some are going to get intercepted.

You're likely going to have to build a new factory closer to them.

[Halpog]

i got a question about the economy and the AI jobs for it

example :
i produce hullparts in antigone ....
splitt faction is running low on hullparts.

how long it needs till the splitt factions starts to send ships to buy my hullparts ?
i mean how long it needs for the AI faction to check after all that iam selling hull parts ?
is there a AI job script that scans every hour ? or 2 hours ?
or how it is handled ?

If you have Hull Parts in Antigonid space and and your destination is Split space (for either Zyarth or Free Families), then it's likely is too far away from them in where they'd be interested. I assume the AI follows the same rules as you so that Station subordinates have a max range of 5 sectors. There's also the additional problem that Zyarth is at war with Argon, so even if they could get to you, some are going to get intercepted.

You're likely going to have to build a new factory closer to them.

yeah i know... but that was not the interesting part i wanted to know sorry

[Scoob]

Hi,

Fill Shortages. I've been using this for over 50 hrs in my game now and, well, it's useless. At first glance it looks like it'll be a great earner, but it's not. It constantly selects VERY low-demand products then can take several hours to sell them at absolutely minimal profits. Perhaps I've not understood how this is supposed to work, but it does not make any money in real terms. My basic auto-traders, limited to ONE sector and ONE ware, have done far far better, even with those severe restrictions. When I started setting up "Fill Shortages" traders, I really thought they'd be doing a proper job.

I.e. Thanks to my constant feeding of the local Ore Refineries in my game, they have a huge abundance of Refined Metals. I was using basic Auto Traders to Buy these cheap Refined Metals, and sell them to Stations producing Hull Parts. Did really well. I then assigned Auto-Traders to buy Hull Parts and sell those. Worked great. Of course, regular NPC traders were helping move stuff between sectors during this time. So, I get to the point where Hull Parts in particular are a VERY profitable ware.

I set up some "fill shortages" traders, assign them Hull Parts and Refined Metals and... they're rubbish. They buy Hull Parts readily enough, but then they sell in dribs and drabs and NOT to the high demand stations like Shipyards. Perhaps they're bugged somehow, but as it stands they are totally useless. I'd hoped they'd be a good stepping-stone to level up the Pilots to Three Stars so I can promote them to a full Auto-Trader. However, after over 50 hrs of running, NONE of them have gotten to three stars. Is experience gain based on profits made? If so, that'd explain whey they're not levelling up. That said, one of my most profitable regular auto-traders hasn't even hit two stars in over 50 hrs of active duty... and that ship has actually been making some good trades.

As a result of this, I'm building a STATION that will both BUY Hull Parts and Refined metals for a rock-bottom price, and sell them for an above average price. This is the only way to keep the economy in balance. basically, though I started a bit later in this v7.0 Beta fresh start, I have been providing raw Ore and Silicon to the local Markets (mostly ARG, ANT and TEL) meaning production of Refined Metals and Teladianium is really strong. I've tried to exploit that further, but Fill Shortages can't do it. The trades ARE there, clear as day, Fill Shortages evidently cannot see them. It roams around multiple sectors, but always seem to find the WORST trade offer to sell to. I.e. A station might be demanding thousands of units of Hull Parts (Shipyard, Wharf, Equipment Dock) but the Fill Shortages trader decides to sell just 30 units to another station instead, time and time again.

As mentioned previously, I'm used to using the Tater Trader (Dead Tater) mod by DeadAir, which is an EXCELLENT auto-trader. Perhaps a little too good as it takes zero pilot skill to start, but it does improve over time. Very good mod, vanilla is auto-traders, and especially Fill Shortages, are pretty bad by comparison.

[Halpog]

@scoob
what u describe is basicaly the reason why i was asking how and when the AI kicks in and start buing from my stations ....
ive seen traders fom teladi and paranide flying across the whole map to buy at my stations hull parts and claytronics and turret components in other games , even far above there 5 sector restrictions

now its like the AI scanns all 6 hours the universe for a station who sells stuff they need. and than decides ahh ok we can send a ship there in the next 6 hours or so ...

example : my fabrik is finished building up, got miners, got traders,drones and all and is setup with propper prices.in the same sector is a ship yard from zyarth, and has 0 hull parts ....
instead of sending a ship to my fabrik.. no.. it just stays there for hours and days empty.and than all of a sudden 1 trader comes buys 1x and thats it.i have to send a trader there to sell hullparts to the shipyard.


i guess and this is a long shot, that a trader no matter if AI or my traders.. have a "weight" for wares
to priotise what he will trade next and will not.and that in a hugh ammount of different wares some wares come short, some not.
it would be a much much better option and way to trade if we can choose a spezific ware to trade.. for a trader. no matter if he stands arround for some time because all is filled up.
on this way we can easy cover any hole, by assigning a 2nd trader to the wares.