The whole X2 economy system is messed up!?!

[DeathAndPain]

I'm considering placing a Trading Station or Equipment Dock down next to an AI equipment dock (maybe in Getsu Fune, with the multiple EQ docks, product's a little low on everything though), and placing ships to purchase the equipment, and sell at full price. I'm not sure if the AI will purchase from my Equipment docks or not though.

Without having checked it, I do not believe they will. Otherwise, the trading stations would have to buy from each other as well, spreading resources over infinite distances over time.

The M3s will pulverize about anything, but below that, the ships have a chance of surviving for a little bit. The longer the ships survive, the higher the chance the Khaak will get killed off by patrols, or the higher the chance the ship will escape. Shields just add to that. That's why I use Iguanas for most of my transports. M3s have to intercept in order to hit my ships, and M4s and M5s won't do so much damage. I could also theoretically equip them with IonDs, and watch them fry some of the smaller Khaak themselves. Smile Expensive though.

According to The Commander, IonD does only damage to shields, which would mean you cannot destroy a ship with that. But perhaps I am missing something?

Either way, after my experiences in Ore Belt, I would not want my transporters to shoot down any Khaak vessel...

I understand the fraud trading. And that did happen, with plenty examples in the beaver trade, for instance. They just took a middle man to send the fur back to the frontier to then be taken back to the government trading posts.

Without being too familiar with American history, I understand that they stole the fur so that they could sell them again. I can hardly imagine the government posts sold it for less than they paid so that someone could legally live on the margin.

re: Crystal Fab
That is a bad choice on your part.

It was just an example what you could do. I am not running my crystal fabs that way (although I occasionally drop off some crystals there that I happened to get by cheaply).

This is because ever AI SPP, need Crystals as a secondary resource. There are also several AI weapon factories that need crystals as a secondary resource.

I know. Like most (if not all) resources that are traded and burnt by trading stations, crystals are very scarce in the galaxy. You can set up a crystal fab anywhere and sell your crystals at max price without needing a ship that sells them for you. It does not really matter which sector you choose (although you will try to use sectors where you have stations that need crystals, in order to make supply conditions for these better. You should, however, not use SDS software, as you would then lose the trading station foolishness profit that can in this case be fully automated).

Putting good shielding on your transports will let them survive KM5 attention. Even in sector, a heavily shielded dolphin with a GIRE in its rear can kill a couple of harrassing KM5s.

And then end up sitting on the Khaak Death List. No thanks. I have had this several times. I have even had my Moron Barracuda on that list and had to give it up.

the trading stations do burn goods out of the middle.

And even if the burning rate of a single trading station may be slow, the fact that there are plenty of them in range means a quite high burning rate.

There are two Rastar Refineries in Rhonkars Clouds. I placed a Crystal Fab there and wanted it be supplied well, and of course I wanted the local 25MW shield factory to receive sufficient supplies, so I added two more Rastar Refineries in that sector. I found that my crystal factory still had some problems obtaining enough oil, and there surrounding trading stations remain pretty much empty of oil. I have now added a third Rastar Refinery. Let's see how much more I must put there before oil supplies improve noticeably.

All goods in a PB evaporates. Otherwise, they'd all fill up with all those pirates you had enslaved and sold off there.

I have always tried to do that, but the ejected pilots vanish when I try to pick them up and do not show up in my cargo room, although my cargo bay is open. Do I need a passenger ship for this? I mean, I do not plan on giving these passengers a comfortable ride!

[j_snare]

the trading stations do burn goods out of the middle. Try keeping an eye on the pirate bases. They all buy some form of food. Sometimes, the local economy wants to buy the food they trade in. But once you've "relocated" a base, you'll find they often trade in food that no one in the local area cares about. You'll still see pirate ships making the long haul out to pick up a load of sunflowers or argnu beef. Then they'll drop that off, and go for another trip. You can watch those food goods evaporate. It's easy enough to watch the traffic that comes into or leaves a PB in most sectors. Even when no trader comes into the PB to buy that food, it will evaporate. All goods in a PB evaporates. Otherwise, they'd all fill up with all those pirates you had enslaved and sold off there.

I'm sorry, I guess I wasn't clear. I'm fully aware of the fact that trading stations, pirate bases, equipment docks and the special stations all burn goods, providing consumption. I was explaining about why it is not normally the case. The reason is that while the stations purchase the food, it typically doesn't hang around for very long, if it's used locally. Most of the stations work like this:
1. Purchase food and transport back to station.
2. Inventory increases.
3. 50 ships from different stations in the area take notice and launch to dock at the trading station.
4. One of the ship is from a station that is very close, and docks and purchases the food.
5. A ship from the trading station looks for food again and goes to step 1.

Thus, the time that an amount of food survives at a station is very limited. This does not happen quite the same place everywhere, but to be honest, most places do not have excess food, and thus it does happen like this. Hopefully I was clear enough this time around.

Without having checked it, I do not believe they will. Otherwise, the trading stations would have to buy from each other as well, spreading resources over infinite distances over time.

Yeah, I've wondered the same thing myself. The only equipment dock I have at the moment is in one of the unknown sectors, and the neighbors are not friendly, so I have it on no outside trading anyway. I'll be trying it when I get to placing one in a safer neighborhood. If it doesn't work, I haven't lost anything, since my main use of the station is for gathering equipment, not selling it back.

According to The Commander, IonD does only damage to shields, which would mean you cannot destroy a ship with that. But perhaps I am missing something?

Either way, after my experiences in Ore Belt, I would not want my transporters to shoot down any Khaak vessel...

It's a little different out of sector. Everything is reduced to a mathematical formula at that point. IonDs actually make decent weapons for defenders due to their rating. They also don't jump ships and stuff. Same with PSGs, they don't do their special area affect damage, just standard. Due to the weapon effects going away, combat with the Khaak is also evened out a bit. They lose the advantage of having instant-hit weapons.

I haven't tried it myself yet, but apparently someone else has taken to equipping their transports with good firepower, and it's paid off in that they will actually take out many attackers. Just don't go in-sector while they're fighting.

Putting good shielding on your transports will let them survive KM5 attention. Even in sector, a heavily shielded dolphin with a GIRE in its rear can kill a couple of harrassing KM5s.

And then end up sitting on the Khaak Death List. No thanks. I have had this several times. I have even had my Moron Barracuda on that list and had to give it up.

Indeed. I'm not worried about them taking out the M5s while they're too slow to get away from anything except a guy in a space suit. You can up the survivability of any ship by putting heavier shields on it, but weapons are harmful unless you are using a BPH pilot. They will actuall attempt to stay and fight, and that will allow the M3s and others to catch up. I don't need my Dolphin to attempt to go on a Khaak killing spree.

And even if the burning rate of a single trading station may be slow, the fact that there are plenty of them in range means a quite high burning rate.

There are two Rastar Refineries in Rhonkars Clouds. I placed a Crystal Fab there and wanted it be supplied well, and of course I wanted the local 25MW shield factory to receive sufficient supplies, so I added two more Rastar Refineries in that sector. I found that my crystal factory still had some problems obtaining enough oil, and there surrounding trading stations remain pretty much empty of oil. I have now added a third Rastar Refinery. Let's see how much more I must put there before oil supplies improve noticeably.

I'm not terribly surprised, since almost all sectors are a little short. But if they remain empty due to sales, they obviously can't burn the product, right?

Let's do a comparison. Crystal Fabs and Cahoonas.

I've got several loops set up in different configurations, testing different theories and such. There are a few such loops that are set up to sell both their crystals and their food to the public, at maximum. My stations are not very far away, and I use Iguanas so the ships are much faster than anything else doing trading.

My loop can go for ages selling and purchasing crystals from the Trading Station. However, for some reason, they do always run into food shortages. If these two goods are being handled the same way by myself and by the Trading Station, how are the results so different?

It's not because the Trading Station is burning my food faster than my crystals. It's because food is that much more popular for other stations to buy. There are many other stations sending ships out to purchase the food thus more are getting there at different times. Including times when the Trading Station had just made another run.

I have always tried to do that, but the ejected pilots vanish when I try to pick them up and do not show up in my cargo room, although my cargo bay is open. Do I need a passenger ship for this? I mean, I do not plan on giving these passengers a comfortable ride!

You actually need a Cargo Life Support System (I think that's what it's called anyway), purchasable at your local pirate base. Otherwise, they can't survive in your hold. I do believe that a TP will be able to support them without the Cargo Life Support, but I'm not entirely sure if that works, since I don't typically go out fighting in my TPs (though the Iguana does make an excellent fighter).

[Lord_Darkstar]

DnP, trading stations (of all forms) do buy from one another. This is how they distribute goods throughout the universe. It works very well for a player, because his trading stations/equipment docks don't "burn" their goods.

The man in the middle fraud worked by having the trading posts ship the fur back to the city, where it was sold for less then the trading post bought it for. This was then shipped back to the trading post for a repeat, and went on until the fur was instead shipped much further east, where the prices were significantly higher.

It isn't just in American history, by the way. These sorts of frauds are common whenever the government gets into business. Governments frequently buy for more then it sells the goods, and that condition always makes it suspectable for circle-fraud. It just depends on if the point of sell is significantly removed enough to make the shipping cost too high to run the scam.

Re: Crystals
Again, you missed the point. No trading station is coming to my maxxed crystal fabs. Not one. But plenty of AI SPPs are! They do get that desperate for crystals. So no "profitting off the circle-trade" for my crystal fabs. Other then making me a really nice profit, I don't mind. I had originally built the Crystal Fab to help supply the local trading stations with crystal for my own independant SPPs in the area. However, I noticed that it was AI SPPs that came running for my crystals as often as the trade stations (I had it at average cost then, because I don't see a reason to depend on the governments more then I have to). I raised my prices, and the SPPs still kept coming, but the trade stations stopped. However, there is a net benefit for me (other then profit), as the AI SPPs are now getting full loads of crystals, leaving them to not compete (at least for a time) at the trade stations with my independant SPPs for crystals.

re: Khaak death list
I don't have that happen in my games. Sorry to hear that you are. However, low shielded targets are priority targets when the AI is deciding on what ship to pick on. Something to consider.

re: refineries
Make sure you have enough food for your being processed. If they have to ship in the food from outside, it will delay them. And if the refineries synch up (sending buying ships to the same target), you'll have a station being delayed even further.

I've got a similar problem in Lucky Planets. There are two food consumers there (125 MW Shield fact and the Crystal Fab), but only one food-2 locally. It does, however, have 2 food-1 locally. The answer is obvious: Put in a second Food-2 to make sure the Crystal Fab will always have food to run on. (I need it to help supply the crystal my stand alone SPP there runs on.) Of course, the nearby sectors want that Food-2 from my station as well. However, the Crystal fab doesn't have as far to go to get it, so it more often buys from me then anyone else. Works out well for me.

Look at your supply chains. Remember that every station that uses that product, needs the full output of its supplying stations (other then energy). Keep in mind that when EQ makers run, they really cause a massive drain on all supplies. They drive up the price, and seem to get their supplies first (pausing everyone else's manufacturing while they do so).

re: slaves
To pick up the ejected pilots, you need to buy a Cargo Life Support Module from the Pirates. And you need to have room in your hold for them. Otherwise, you just kill ejected pilots when you try to pick them up. It doesn't count in your stats as a dead pilot, but that is what happens to them. Splat!

[Lord_Darkstar]

J_snare, you forget the "evaporation" cycle that happens. While the stock is in place on the Trading Station, it still evaporates. If a food is used locally, a fair bit of it can "evaporate" before the station next door can fly over and buy the remain stock. Remember, in trading stations, they use their supplies at 1/3 the rate of a running station. That's 3 out of the 10/minute products, 5 ecells a minute (Terracorp HQ), and 1 out of 3/minute products, and a big 1 fuel per 3 minutes (you can actually watch space fuel get shipped between pirate stations, if you are in the whiskey making business).

re: Player owned trading station networks
If you've been reading the forums, you may have noticed that some of the mega-tycoons like to put up a string of EQ docks. By raising the price of the EQ they care about at the local EQ dock, they can pull all the goods they want across the galaxy to that EQ dock. That is how it should work... by pulling an item from their neighbor (best buy) they'll force their neighbor to go pull in a new item. It won't get that item from the higher priced dock, so there won't be any "tag backs". Thus, that empty slot will proprogate through the trade network until someone in the EQ network finds a cheaper product at the source and buys that.

re: PSGs in OOS usage
Very poor weapon for OOS. The forums say to use something else for OOS. I've read on the forums that IonDs don't do any damage. But I've also read that they do actual damage OOS. So I should run a test for myself, I suppose, to find out the actual answer.

[BillyBoyFloyd]

OFFTOPIC

I've been away a long time, and wanted to congratulate the authors of this thread. I've never seen a topic get this much attention without degenerating into a total flame-fest

Awesome!!!!

I am also amused that it did generate this much attention, since you are about 60 days or so from totally abandoning all your obsolete empires to be born again in X3!!!!

May I suggest we each all turn the global IFF indicators all to 'YES' and watch the flames....

[pjknibbs]

May I suggest we each all turn the global IFF indicators all to 'YES' and watch the flames....

Or then again, let's not. It would be a shame to see a constructive discussion like this get locked.

[j_snare]

Re: Crystals
Again, you missed the point. No trading station is coming to my maxxed crystal fabs. Not one. But plenty of AI SPPs are! They do get that desperate for crystals. So no "profitting off the circle-trade" for my crystal fabs. Other then making me a really nice profit, I don't mind. I had originally built the Crystal Fab to help supply the local trading stations with crystal for my own independant SPPs in the area. However, I noticed that it was AI SPPs that came running for my crystals as often as the trade stations (I had it at average cost then, because I don't see a reason to depend on the governments more then I have to). I raised my prices, and the SPPs still kept coming, but the trade stations stopped. However, there is a net benefit for me (other then profit), as the AI SPPs are now getting full loads of crystals, leaving them to not compete (at least for a time) at the trade stations with my independant SPPs for crystals.

Interesting, that's not quite what I'm seeing. I can watch my crystals go from my station to the trading station, and then to my SPP, in most cases. The AI SPPs don't show up at my door very often, they're too busy going elsewhere.

However, the system does run the smoothest when the Crystal Fab is placed farther out from the trading station, and the SPP is placed almost right next to it. If you give the trading station's ship a longer time to get home (though still short), the long production time of the Crystal Fab will have more crystals and they'll set out again. In the meantime, you can drain the Trading Station of the crystals it just purchased within seconds.

Perhaps that's why I don't see a whole lot of this "evaporation" cycle with these products. I mostly work with Boron food, which produces at a slower rate per item, and Crystals take forever to produce. Also, I don't plan on the 10 stations people like to get out of a SPP, I round down. So this mitigates my problems. Still, you're right, there is minor leakage. Not much at all though.

[DeathAndPain]

Everything is reduced to a mathematical formula at that point. IonDs actually make decent weapons for defenders due to their rating.

At this point my English appears to desert me. What do you mean by "due to their rating"? I mean, it is the damage/sec that counts for a weapon, isn't it? And IonDs do not do any damage whatsoever to the hull. In another thread I have seen people suggest using IonDs to lower the enemy shields and then switch to Beta HEPT for the hull, but I consider switching weapons in mid-combat as too much of a hassle with regard to the fact that the BHEPT also does very well against shields.

They also don't jump ships and stuff. Same with PSGs, they don't do their special area affect damage, just standard. Due to the weapon effects going away, combat with the Khaak is also evened out a bit. They lose the advantage of having instant-hit weapons.

I do not really understand. Why would the use of PSGs or whatever weapons cause the Khaak to no longer enjoy the benefit of their instant-hit-weapons?

I haven't tried it myself yet, but apparently someone else has taken to equipping their transports with good firepower, and it's paid off in that they will actually take out many attackers. Just don't go in-sector while they're fighting.

Yes, but in my case, the Khaak will mark that ship for retaliation. That is why I do not want my freighters to shoot down anything. But perhaps I could mount IonDs which cannot destroy an enemy in order to scare off an attacker?

but weapons are harmful unless you are using a BPH pilot. They will actuall attempt to stay and fight, and that will allow the M3s and others to catch up. I don't need my Dolphin to attempt to go on a Khaak killing spree.

Will the ship also try to stand and fight if it only has a weapon in its turret? I mean, a rear turret is ill suited to pursue and shoot down an enemy. It is a purely defensive weapon by design.

I'm not terribly surprised, since almost all sectors are a little short. But if they remain empty due to sales, they obviously can't burn the product, right?

Wrong. They do sometimes have it in stock, but only ridiculous quantities like 14 oil or so. Such quantities are not worth sending a ship to buy them, but still they get burnt. The fact that the available oil is dispersed over the surrounding trading stations like that actually maximizes the rate at which it is burnt.

re: Khaak death list
However, low shielded targets are priority targets when the AI is deciding on what ship to pick on. Something to consider.

Are you sure that this also applies to the Khaak? To me they appear to be pretty random at their choice of target.

re: refineries
Make sure you have enough food for your being processed.

The local Chelt's Aquaria are still well stocked. I guess that is because Trading Stations do not buy and burn chelts. I have now added another aquarium anyway just to be sure (I now also have two crystal fabs in that sector in order to power the two spps that I constructed there). So I have 2 oil-consuming fabs and 3 oil-producing fabs there. In addition, there are another 2 oil-producing NPC fabs in that sector (and plenty of them in neighboring sectors). Chelt's meat is in ample supply. And still oil is scarce. But well, I will add more refineries and have them sell oil at max price. Should not hurt my purse in the long run. I am just looking forward to finding out how many refineries it will take to get reasonable oil supplies in the local stations.

Look at your supply chains. Remember that every station that uses that product, needs the full output of its supplying stations (other then energy). Keep in mind that when EQ makers run, they really cause a massive drain on all supplies.

That is why I do not own a single EQ maker and do not plan on getting one soon. Instead, I rather try to supply an NPC EQ maker with all it needs so that it actually works.

As for the chain, I try to supply the required resources (as explained above), but sell to the AI instead of my next hop factory (using SDS software) so that my factories make a considerable profit. If you have AI spps buy your products (that they do not really need btw), then you are lucky. But normally, it is the trading stations that empty the factory stocks.

[pjknibbs]

I do not really understand. Why would the use of PSGs or whatever weapons cause the Khaak to no longer enjoy the benefit of their instant-hit-weapons?

He didn't say that. What he meant was that OOS ALL weapons are effectively instant hit, and their power depends only on their rating (the number you can see in your ship stats--e.g. a fully loaded Nova with 2xBHEPT and a GPAC would have a laser rating of 19,000). OOS combat is thus a considerably different proposition to IN sector combat--OOS a Centaur will tackle a Khaak cluster with ease, whereas in sector the same cluster will pwn the same Centaur no problem.

[DeathAndPain]

Hmm... I am not sure what "out-of-sector"-combat is supposed to mean. Perhaps I am not deep enough into the plot yet? (I am working on my economy right now.)

Or do I just have to fly a certain amount of km away from the core of a sector in order to enter "deep space", where the rules of combat are different?

[pjknibbs]

Out Of Sector means what happens in any sector other than the sector you are currently flying in. Simple fact is, there is no PC in existence which could take the load of calculating the full AI, fire, hit ratio etc. for battles taking place "off screen", so X2 simplifies what happens in these other sectors considerably. A side effect of this simplification is that things happen differently OOS than they do in-sector.