Multicore argument (split from Military Base Response rev.)

apricotslice · Post by **apricotslice** » Mon, 7. Dec 09, 04:36

No it wasnt.

You simply wont accept what people say.

You got your answers back on page 1 and your still in denial and arguing about it.

Since you havent posted your dxdiag so we can see if there is a real reason for your issues, it does look like your just trolling for an argument.

eladan · Post by **eladan** » Mon, 7. Dec 09, 04:45

Enough, please. The discussion is a perfectly valid one, and no-one to date has caused any trouble in this thread. Lets keep it that way.

If you feel you're not getting anywhere with an argument, you're welcome to leave the thread and simply ignore it.

@Robert, AS was close, but what we know is that Terran Conflict was billed as 'the final game in the X trilogy', which doesn't preclude a follow on. However, Bernd did say in an interview that the next game wasn't going to be an X game.

I'm sure that Egosoft will keep their options open as to whether to make X4 or not, but I think it's safe to assume at this stage that it's not currently on the drawing board.

alex2069 · Post by **alex2069** » Mon, 7. Dec 09, 04:54

While I have grown to like the X-universe, and would like an X4, I think the correct question to ask is this:
Will their next game be a space-sim game *similar* to the X-Universe games in terms of general game play and goals (open ended; fight, think, build, all that jazz). I don't care about the X-Universe that much (as in, I like it, but don't *need* to see it go on), and would frankly love a new space-sim with a whole new universe and style, all new races, etc. <- that's the big one.

If their next game is some sort of racing game... Well... I wont be buying it, lol.
But a space-sim - I'll pre-order it.

eladan · Post by **eladan** » Mon, 7. Dec 09, 04:59

alex2069 wrote:While I have grown to like the X-universe, and would like an X4, I think the correct question to ask is this:
Will their next game be a space-sim game *similar* to the X-Universe games in terms of general game play and goals (open ended; fight, think, build, all that jazz).

My recollection of that interview is that yes, the next game will be a space sim. That was the limit to details though.

apricotslice · Post by **apricotslice** » Mon, 7. Dec 09, 05:00

I personally will take any space oriented game they come up with.

What I really dont want is an X4 that once again doesnt fix the inherent problems that TC has that were brought forward from X3R, which were brought forward from X2, because they cant fix them without rewriting things.

What I'd prefer to see is a completely new space game, built from the ground up that contains nothing at all carried over from X. There can be some high level similarities, but every single aspect of it written as new.

Kor'ah · Post by **Kor'ah** » Mon, 7. Dec 09, 05:10

*Shrug*

If multi-thread and 64 bit OS support was just a matter of a patch Egosoft would've done it for X3 long ago. Keep in mind that X3TC is basicly an extensive mod for a now old game engine. Obviously it's abit more complex than just applying a patch to bring the game inline with current trends. Nevermind not being economical enough for egosoft at this time.

The next game ES does will have a better chance of haveing all those gizmos you're asking for. Don't worry, it'll most likely slow down those super fast systems a few years down the road to a crawl.

joelR · Post by **joelR** » Mon, 7. Dec 09, 05:17

Ahhhhhhhh!

Another Robert Foster thread thread split off from another thread!!!!

Aegyen · Post by **Aegyen** » Mon, 7. Dec 09, 05:25

I will throw my 2 cents in there as well...

Egosoft builds a new space sim, I am there...

Concentrate on the gameplay, the eyecandy is nice, but not the most important thing. I can live without the latest and greatest things that can be done with DX whatever, but the gameplay has to be there.

I have been a space sim fan for years, and have played the X series far more than I have any other type of space sim, mainly because it has more of the 'you are there' feel to it, than many of the others like Sins, etc.

One bit of input, for the idea board, is to enhance the idea of the Player HQ even more:

Give me 1 interior, an office fit for the CEO of an interstellar empire, and an operations room to run it...

Robert Foster · Post by **Robert Foster** » Mon, 7. Dec 09, 06:37

@eladan
Thank you.,
And I did not know of this interview. never seen it.,
this is the first time of me hearing about it.
and if its in german or sweden I will (not) understand it.
But seriously, I did not see this at all.
Would of been cool though to end on a (even number) though.

But, since you said it will be another space sim,
at least I know they learned from this road to pave a new one.

If they do another kind of space sim, I'll definitely buy it,
because I have already experienced X series,
so I know another kind of space game would come out even better.
(I hope)

As long as people keep making mods and full conversions
I will keep playing X series.

@Kor'ah
That was funny...
And I hope they do that.,
because then I know ill get the bang for my buck.

*Shrug*

@Aegyen
Hilarious.

"give that man a suit and a tie".!

frymaster · Post by **frymaster** » Mon, 7. Dec 09, 15:27

64-bit support, though easier to implement (the fact the LAA flag can be applied to the exe implies this) is actually more problematic from a pragmatic point of view than multithreading, because it's multiplies the test burden and the support burden in a way that multithreaded processing doesn't

a single core machine can run multithreaded apps - a 64bit machine can run 32-bit apps. a 32-bit machines cannot run 64-bit apps

you'd also end up with a situation where half the playerbase could do things the other half couldn't, and savegames from 64-bit players could crash out 32-bit players with virtual memory exhaustion, and you'd have twice the testing to do

NUKLEAR-SLUG · Post by **NUKLEAR-SLUG** » Mon, 7. Dec 09, 15:40

There's no point converting X3 to 64bit when it would alienate half the userbase. 64bit market penetration isn't anywhere near the point where it would sense yet. Not everyone has a 64bit processor, and of those not everyone has a 64bit OS.

paulwheeler · Post by **paulwheeler** » Mon, 7. Dec 09, 16:46

What may be of benefit (although I'm no programming expert so don't quote me!) is you could move the entire X3 process to a different core. That way all general OS background tasks would not interfere and X3 would get an entire core all to itself. I believe its called core affinity and would not require a rewrite of the engine. In fact I think you may be able to force it in task manager...

As for the next Egosoft game - perhaps David Braben will employ Egosoft to do Elite 4!

@Robert Foster - With your system you really should not be getting any problems at all. I run a Core 2 Duo E6600 with 4GBs of RAM and a Nvidia 8800GT and I rarely get any slowdowns with a multitude of mods and scripts running, even in large battles. Only with hundreds of ships in a sector and lots of factories do I start getting problems.

P.S. Whats with (all) the random brackets (in) the middle of sentences? Makes (no) sense...

Post by **Cycrow** » Mon, 7. Dec 09, 17:12

paulwheeler wrote:What may be of benefit (although I'm no programming expert so don't quote me!) is you could move the entire X3 process to a different core. That way all general OS background tasks would not interfere and X3 would get an entire core all to itself. I believe its called core affinity and would not require a rewrite of the engine. In fact I think you may be able to force it in task manager...

this is not something the game would be able to do generally.
its upto windows to descide where the process goes, and what you describe should already happen anyways.

if not, you can manually set the core affinity in windows

nothing the developer needs to do for this

Cdaragorn · Post by **Cdaragorn** » Mon, 7. Dec 09, 17:47

While I agree that multithreaded support would be awesome, I think that most discussions of it either ignore or don't understand just how hard it is to do. The biggest difficulty in multithreaded apps is trying to debug it. Because the threads run asynchronously, you have no idea which thread caused a given bug, and it takes a ton of effort to track that down. Basically, it makes perfect sense why Ego had to decide to forgo using multiple theads, it's simply not feasible for a smaller company to do.

@Robert Foster
As far as the slowdowns you're describing go, I run X3TC on an AMD dual core 3.2Ghz proc, and I have never seen the kinds of slideshow problems you're describing, even in a major dogfight/battle.

If you'd be willing to actually put up a dxdiag, we might be able to help you find whatever bottleneck is causing that kind of behavior. While I appreciate that your system is really up to date, clearly there's something causing a bottleneck in it's ability to process the program. It may even be something really simple, but there's no way we can help you see it if you won't let us see what your system is.

I would be especially interested in knowing what PSU you're using. In my experience, that's the most common thing that causes ppl's awesome computers to fail to perform as well as they should.

And then there's this...

Robert Foster wrote: and does not take advantage of the 64bit multicore of that either, since its single threaded., can't fully take advantage of my L2 on my CPU either.
thats not my fault

64 or 32bit, single or multithreaded, all have nothing to do with how the cache on your cpu is used. That's all determined by your OS, and it will use the cache to it's fullest regardless of these details in the program.

WEIRDANIMATOR · Post by **WEIRDANIMATOR** » Mon, 7. Dec 09, 18:04

Didn't we already have this multi-core debate?

To make X3 multi threaded would require the writing of a completely new exe, same with 64bit support. If your going to do that much then you would be as well rewriting the graphics engine too so it can take advantage of directx11 it's essentially writing a new game. That's why it won't be done for an old game, just wait for egosofts next game and all your wishes will come true... Near enough

I cant imagine any developer not taking advantage of multi-core 64bit processors in a new game even if it means having 2 exe's one for 32bit and one for 64bit

Thelic · Post by **Thelic** » Mon, 7. Dec 09, 18:11

WEIRDANIMATOR wrote:Didn't we already have this multi-core debate?

We have this debate every few months, along with "Why are there no cockpits in X3?" and other somesuch.

perkint · Post by **perkint** » Mon, 7. Dec 09, 18:15

WEIRDANIMATOR wrote:I cant imagine any developer not taking advantage of multi-core 64bit processors in a new game even if it means having 2 exe's one for 32bit and one for 64bit

I can! I've just built a 64bit PC (ie OS as well as CPU) and I'm very surprised about how little support there is for it. There are even still limitations in the MS software needing you to use 32bit exe's (eg you can't use IE64 as default).

64bit processors are (more or less) completely standard. 64bit OS? That's a different matter.

Tim

WEIRDANIMATOR · Post by **WEIRDANIMATOR** » Mon, 7. Dec 09, 18:21

I think its just microsoft that cant seem to do the 64bit thing right all the 64bit distro's of linux i've tried have worked very well OSX does 64bit well too

pjknibbs · Post by **pjknibbs** » Mon, 7. Dec 09, 18:30

I think Windows 64 bit works fine. Just because a lot of the standard apps like IE are 32-bit doesn't change that...and it could be argued that a web browser doesn't really need to be a 64-bit application anyway. Don't forget, if you're not needing to access more than 2Gb of RAM, there's little benefit to going 64-bit and in fact there are some small DISADVANTAGES (because all your pointers are twice the size and thus you need more memory to do the same stuff).

WEIRDANIMATOR · Post by **WEIRDANIMATOR** » Mon, 7. Dec 09, 23:58

pjknibbs wrote:I think Windows 64 bit works fine. Just because a lot of the standard apps like IE are 32-bit doesn't change that...and it could be argued that a web browser doesn't really need to be a 64-bit application anyway. Don't forget, if you're not needing to access more than 2Gb of RAM, there's little benefit to going 64-bit and in fact there are some small DISADVANTAGES (because all your pointers are twice the size and thus you need more memory to do the same stuff).

Dude i think you should have had the emphasis on SMALL not on disadvantages, pointers are kinda small to start with are they not? What's the likelihood of that making a difference on a system with over 4gb of RAM?

Ps. Anyone else tempted to make a web page that needs 8gb of ram to open or is it just me?

egosoft.com

egosoft.com

Multicore argument (split from Military Base Response rev.)