Would you like an M5+?

[philip_hughes]

Was thinking about the paper-scissors-rock game you play when pitting ship classes against each other. As a general rule, the ships are pretty balanced. i would like to add one tho and that would be the capital ship killing m5.

Needs to work in packs of 5 to ten with special software that keeps it, if at all possible, 4k's from an m1 or 2. Extremely expensive (3-4 million) so it would hurt if you lost one, speed of a slow m5, excruciatingly thin shields with a single gppc in the front with only the energy for one to two shots every 30 seconds or so.

The idea would be that these little fellas swarm a given m2 from all angles, keeping out of flack range, destroying it by sheer weight of numbers at a range the m2 is helpless from. Some kind of stealth tech making it hard for missiles to lock would be fun too. In order to defend against this you would need a fleet of m5's. The m5+ would in turn be defenseless against ordinary m5's and the cycle goes up from there. This would add a new layer of complexity to fleet actions.

comments?

[DDM_Reaper20]

I'll bite.

IWhile the idea of a fast, light capship-killer sounds enticing, there are issues you yourself mentioned: cost and vulnerability.

A slow M5+ cannot hope to outrun an M5, and might run into trouble with M4. A single G-PPC sounds powerful, but one to two shots every 30 seconds aren't really going to put much of a dent into a capship's shields. A way to spoof missiles might help, but that would impair balance, and thus, either have to be insanely expensive, or not all-powerful.

Corvettes should fill the role you are describing.

M5+ already exists -- the Yaki's munchkin M5.

I'm sorry if I come across as harsh; that's not at all my intention.

[philip_hughes]

Thats what would make it all the more fun. At the moment, if you want fighters for your m1 its m3+ all the way. I want it to be neccesary to put a series of classes into your carrier bay to make your combat effective.

[fud]

Sounds like a GPPC powered super drone.

I like it.

[aka1nas]

Why not just give such an M5 the ability to launch some of the heavier missiles such as Thunderbolts or even Firestorms and Hammerheads? Most of the combat-tweaking scripts like OCS Apollo and FCS Mk3 fix missile usage enough that ships will launch missiles at long range instead of waiting until they are in energy range.

My carrier based-M3s absolutely destroy m2s this way as they all launch several thunderbolts each at the target from several KMs away.

[jlehtone]

IIRC, CODEA (a German Carrier management script) has separate logic for "interceptors", "defenders", and "bombers". And those "bombers" are unarmed, minimally shielded fighters, which do launch missiles.

(Group Management Hotkeys let you make your wing to launch missiles from any range. Five Typhoons at XI K with one keypress. )


OP described three classes:
* M5: kills M5+, is killed by M1
* M5+: in large groups can kill M1, is killed by M5
* M1: kills M5, can be killed by M5+ squadrons

Classical triangle. But does not differ much from: M3+, M3+ with missiles, M1.

IMO, the problem is not in ship types, but in the logic they do follow. All the above-mentioned scripts address the logic. OP's description of the M5+ did too.


Elephant vs KM2 has only dual BPPC, and due to "weak" generator, the guns do not fire continuously at full rate. 30 sec per shot may be a bit long though, unless you have dozens of M5+. 30 M5+ would still fire "once per second".

[fiksal]

isnt gppc a huge cannon in X3?
having an M5 that can mount GPPC kinda doesnt fit the universe too well.

I like the idea of M5s being able to carry larger missiles though

[fud]

Actually, I should make a new space suit that shoots a GPPC from your face.

[poingjam]

Interesting, but I'd rather see a stronger version of the fast M5's. Give it the offensive and defensive capabilities of a good M4, the speed and agility of a fast M5, cargo of an M4, and cost of an expensive M3. So from a spending perspective:

M3 -Defense -Offense -Cargo -Cheapness ++Speed ++Agility

I figure it balances out reasonably well. Maybe it's not a realistic ship, but it's in a video game, and fun must always come before realism.

[fud]

The only problem with those specs are that it'd virtually make an M4 redundant.

I'd say, keep the shielding/hull the same, maybe a little more cargo, and up the laser gen a bit. Just a little better than the noraml M5, but not the same as an M4.

[fiksal]

fud, out of the face? you disappoint me


to me, M5 lacks purpose.

all it has going is speed. It's a scout at best. M4 can take its place, and can actually be a threat to other ships.

Besides "intelligence" gathering is not really a part of this game, which makes M5 quite useless... in my game anyway

[MrPopo]

The problem with the M5 is that while it's very fast and manueverable, it does not have the weaponry to exploit that manueverability. A skilled M5 pilot can be untouchable, but in return he's not doing more than tickling enemy ships. I could see an M5+ being a ship that can mount some kind of heavy weapon with a decent fire rate, like a few HEPTs, which would allow it to chomp on M3's/M6's that were only mounted with heavy stuff, as they would have problems hitting the M5+. At the same time, the M4 and regular M5 would be able to take down the M5+, as they would have the speed and faster weapons to consistently nail it.

[Gammel]

An M5 that mounted a single gPPC would be....odd. I mean it would be expensive, gPPCs don't come cheap. And it would need to mount XL cargo, and have a pretty large cargo hold, for a M5. Which would open up all kinds of odd things. Like the fact you could mount an ore collector on one. Then you could run a small fleet of ore collecting 'drones' out of your TL which would be a lot faster and less prone to collisions than the conventionally used TS'.

Actually that would be kinda cool.

[Nanook]

The problem with the M5 is that while it's very fast and manueverable, it does not have the weaponry to exploit that manueverability. A skilled M5 pilot can be untouchable, but in return he's not doing more than tickling enemy ships. ....

This is just not true. In vanilla X3 with my Pirate Harrier Raider, I can quite easily take on and defeat most pirate patrols, as long as there's no more than one Nova, and no more than one ship packing and using PSG's. A human player flying an M5 with BIRE's or PAC's can easily defeat any other M5 or M4, and most M3's. 4 APAC's pack a lot of firepower.

I see no reason to add anything in between. The progression of ships works quite well, IMO: M5->M4->M3->etc. And I really don't see the point of adding in yet another ship type that can kill capital ships. It's really not all that hard to do right now and there are plenty of options.

[xxbluedragonxx]

I don't agree with the idea of fighter type ships being able to take on capital ships. At all. Capital ships should be fighting and killing other capital ships! They should be terrifying to anyone else. Freespace is a good example how scarey it is to go up against capital ships and their anti fighter flak guns. You should not be able to survive!

[ProteusMST]

fud, out of the face? you disappoint me


to me, M5 lacks purpose.

all it has going is speed. It's a scout at best. M4 can take its place, and can actually be a threat to other ships.

Besides "intelligence" gathering is not really a part of this game, which makes M5 quite useless... in my game anyway

I disagree.

The M5 is very useful in its scout role.
Its speed alows you to get quickly in ands out of heavy defended Sectors (like the Xenon ones) without getting hit and makes it also useful in quickly exploring new sectors.
Even in Combat, although not as useful as heavier ships it can serve as a distraction to the enemy, so that some of the enemies target your scouts instead of your heavier ships (hopefully without hitting them due to the maneuverability and speed of the M5s) leaving your heavier fighters with more shield energy.
(and even if one M5 is shot down it costs less to replace it than if you had to replace a heavier fighter)

So, even if they lack a purpose for the way you play your game, they aren´t useless in the game if you use them in certain roles.

[philip_hughes]

If you have a look at modern warfare, you will realise that it IS the job of the fighters to kill the capital ships.

It all started with Midway in WW2; the first action where the two fighting ships never directly saw each other. Admittedly the fighters generally attacked fighters and there were specific bombers, but the ships themselves never exchanged broadsides. In case you were wondering, doing a bombing run against flak was extremely dangerous, but they did it anyway... In my scenario, the M5+ would be acting like the bombers in Midway, the M5's would be the fighters.

[ProteusMST]

But your analogon already is true for the current system.
M3s are the ones that are comparable to Bombers in WW2,
whereas M4 and M5 are the ones that do anti fighter duty.

And instead of bombs löike in WW2 they can load missiles that pack a high enough punch to endanger capital ships.

Their onboard Cannons however might not be heavy enough to damage a capital ship, but this was also true for the Bombers of WW2, you didn´t see any Bomber or fighter that mounted a cannon of capital ship size and it would have never been possible.
Just imagine a WW2 Fighter (or Bomber) that carries a huge capital ship cannon

And this would also be implausible for the current system to have small fighters (M5 size) with capitalship weapons.
PPCs are huge (I assume) and there are reasons why M5s can only mount small weapons and small shield generators. The reason is that all available space and mass is already taken by the huge engine as well as the power generator.
IMHO from the size of the ship alone the only fighter possibly being able to carry a PPC would ba en M3+ variant (that is slower and less maneuverable than a normal M3+ and also has less shields).

[fiksal]

The M5 is very useful in its scout role.

the interface and AI makes it kinda hard to use

for personal use - sure

Capital ships should be fighting and killing other capital ships!

depends on what 'war' model you like more: modern, ww2 or sail ships

[philip_hughes]

well... my idea was basically a gppc with an engine.