New Mod up for your approval (and testing!)
http://users.genesee-id.com/cholmes/x2/ ... 20BETA.zip
It's called the Need4Speed mod.
Abstract:
I'm an X-wing vs. Tie-Fighter fan. I love the feeling of speed you get playing those games, and how great it makes dogfighting. X2 lacks that, so I went about trying to fix it. I've accomplished my goal, I think. Needs further testing.
Basically, all fighter speeds have been increased (proportionally) and balanced. Rudders have been decreased (proportionally) to mitigate ultru-responsive turning. Weapons have been increased in speed, as have missiles, to compensate.
The result: everything moves faster now, and dogfighting is much more enjoyable. I tested it the best I could, and tuned everything as best I could. I made all adjustments proportionally, so that every ship maintains his superiority/inferiority over sister ships of the same type. Ex: Before this mod, the Teladi Falcon was the slowest M3. After this mod, that is still true. I didn't play favorites with this mod, I just shifted the speeds to make it faster, more frenzied, and ultimately, more fun.
Try it - send me feedback!
I'll try and be prompt about fixing errors. Also, there's a huge readme file for anyone who wants details. Just DL the zip.
I Feel the Need - The Need4Speed!
Moderators: Moderators for English X Forum, Scripting / Modding Moderators
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blackspell
- Posts: 128
- Joined: Sat, 6. Mar 04, 20:18
now this is a good idea!
i tried it out, started a new game, cheated me a fully equipped nova in and jumped directly into a pirate sector. early in the game there are really many pirates there - perfect :)
the combat experience is much more intense at this speed - really, i like it.
only bad thing -but there's nothing you can do about it- is the ramming issue. at the higher speeds it increases you chance to get something 'damaged' - took me only about 5mizuras to loose one b-hept to a orinoco :(
i'll have to try the m6's next.
keep up this good work!
i tried it out, started a new game, cheated me a fully equipped nova in and jumped directly into a pirate sector. early in the game there are really many pirates there - perfect :)
the combat experience is much more intense at this speed - really, i like it.
only bad thing -but there's nothing you can do about it- is the ramming issue. at the higher speeds it increases you chance to get something 'damaged' - took me only about 5mizuras to loose one b-hept to a orinoco :(
i'll have to try the m6's next.
keep up this good work!
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The_Tigers_Eye
- Posts: 1155
- Joined: Fri, 6. Feb 04, 12:09
Some things I noticed while playing my mod last night:
(1) You're definatley right abou the ramming issues - it seems to happen MUCH more often now. But, I have heard that 1.4 patch will be addressing some of the AI ramming logic, so hopefully that will fix this.
(2) Rudders still seemed to be out-of-whack when I played. I ran into an Orinoco that had 99% rudder tunings - I had thought I capped all fighters at a maximum of 50%. High rudder tunings are what allow ships to turn around quickly and ram. So I may look into adjusting these down even more.
(3) I decreased engine and rudder tunings to 5 each for Pirates, Khaak, and Xenon, in the hopes of eliminating the computer's desire to send enemies at you with nominal tunings, resulting in unbalanced play. This seems to be problematic for existing ships in the universe, as it causes ship already in existence to ignore the new settings. If an Orinoco already has 15 rudder tunings, it doesn't follow the max 5 rule in my mod. So you end up having to fight a supercharged Orinoco... kinda tough. Will have to look into this.
Keep the feedback coming. I would really like to tune this mod so that it is worthwhile to play.
(1) You're definatley right abou the ramming issues - it seems to happen MUCH more often now. But, I have heard that 1.4 patch will be addressing some of the AI ramming logic, so hopefully that will fix this.
(2) Rudders still seemed to be out-of-whack when I played. I ran into an Orinoco that had 99% rudder tunings - I had thought I capped all fighters at a maximum of 50%. High rudder tunings are what allow ships to turn around quickly and ram. So I may look into adjusting these down even more.
(3) I decreased engine and rudder tunings to 5 each for Pirates, Khaak, and Xenon, in the hopes of eliminating the computer's desire to send enemies at you with nominal tunings, resulting in unbalanced play. This seems to be problematic for existing ships in the universe, as it causes ship already in existence to ignore the new settings. If an Orinoco already has 15 rudder tunings, it doesn't follow the max 5 rule in my mod. So you end up having to fight a supercharged Orinoco... kinda tough. Will have to look into this.
Keep the feedback coming. I would really like to tune this mod so that it is worthwhile to play.
Version 1.1 can be found at the original link. I've updated the mod. It's much better now.
One of the main problems was tunings during a savegame were affecting the intent of the mod, and creating a situation where dogfighting was just too stupid. I was getting rammed 10 times in 15 minutes, rediculous.
I fixed it, and greatly reduced rudder capabilities for all fighters. With the increased speeds, it is a lot more like playing X-wing now.
I tested this extensively last night with a lot of dogfighting against pirates. It was actually fun and challenging! I was doing some capturing in my M5 Discoverer (started a new game) vs Mandalays and Bayamons.
Something I discovered - the AI isn't all that bad. The problem is that with slow speeds and hyper-responsive turn radius, it is way too easy for an enemy to quickly turn on you and ram. With the rudders turned way down, and the speeds turned way up, this isn't the case anymore. It's much more like flying jets, and trying to stay behind your enemy and keep a firing solution on them is work. Also, the AI will actually work their speed controls a lot, speeding up and slowing down to try and get you to ram into the back of them, or fly past them. I had to shut my engines down and drift several times during dogfights last night so that my enemy would stay in front of me.
Dogfighting is much better now, I think. I encourage anyone to try this mod if you are bored with the dogfighting in X2. Give it a shot - uninstalling it is as simple as deleting two files. It just might make your game better.
And I encourage the few folks who downloaded the BETA 1.0 mod to download the new one. The zip still says Beta 1.0, but the readme should say 1.1 inside. You'll get the new files.
Enjoy.
One of the main problems was tunings during a savegame were affecting the intent of the mod, and creating a situation where dogfighting was just too stupid. I was getting rammed 10 times in 15 minutes, rediculous.
I fixed it, and greatly reduced rudder capabilities for all fighters. With the increased speeds, it is a lot more like playing X-wing now.
I tested this extensively last night with a lot of dogfighting against pirates. It was actually fun and challenging! I was doing some capturing in my M5 Discoverer (started a new game) vs Mandalays and Bayamons.
Something I discovered - the AI isn't all that bad. The problem is that with slow speeds and hyper-responsive turn radius, it is way too easy for an enemy to quickly turn on you and ram. With the rudders turned way down, and the speeds turned way up, this isn't the case anymore. It's much more like flying jets, and trying to stay behind your enemy and keep a firing solution on them is work. Also, the AI will actually work their speed controls a lot, speeding up and slowing down to try and get you to ram into the back of them, or fly past them. I had to shut my engines down and drift several times during dogfights last night so that my enemy would stay in front of me.
Dogfighting is much better now, I think. I encourage anyone to try this mod if you are bored with the dogfighting in X2. Give it a shot - uninstalling it is as simple as deleting two files. It just might make your game better.
And I encourage the few folks who downloaded the BETA 1.0 mod to download the new one. The zip still says Beta 1.0, but the readme should say 1.1 inside. You'll get the new files.
Enjoy.
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Constipated_Vigilante
- Posts: 2746
- Joined: Sun, 14. Mar 04, 05:07
Mods don't affect savegames. You can install it without worry.
At the startup screen (the first screen you see in Windows, where you can alter joystick settings, graphics resolutions, etc) there is an option to load a mod. After you've installed any mods (in a /mods folder that you have to make manually) those mods will be availabe as selections at that screen.
If you don't like the mod, then just restart the game, and deselect the mod prior to playing. There is an option in the mod selection dialog to play the original game. So playing with/without mods is really easy.
At the startup screen (the first screen you see in Windows, where you can alter joystick settings, graphics resolutions, etc) there is an option to load a mod. After you've installed any mods (in a /mods folder that you have to make manually) those mods will be availabe as selections at that screen.
If you don't like the mod, then just restart the game, and deselect the mod prior to playing. There is an option in the mod selection dialog to play the original game. So playing with/without mods is really easy.
The trick is to find the scripts and mods that enhance the game the way you think it needs to be enhanced.Constipated_Vigilante wrote:First game with scripts I have, I'm still sceptical about them.
My newbie advice to anyone would be: Start a game without mods with the intention that you will eventually restart the game. Don't try and finish the game/plot your first time through. Instead, use the first playing as a guide to the universe and mechanics of the game.
Once you've played for a couple weeks or more, figure out what you like and don't like about the game, and what you think needs improving. Then, look for mods and scripts that alter the game the way you think it should be played. Download and install those scripts, and try them out with your savegames of your original start. If you liket the changes, and feel like the scripts/mods create a much better game, restart X2 with a new game - start from scratch - and play through to the end.
The combat was the #1 thing I was disappointed with in X2. After my first week or so of playing, I downloaded a mod that greatly reduced enemy rudders, but didn't alter speeds at all. This had the effect of basically making enemy ships sitting ducks. The combat just wasn't fun. But, I am a programmer by trade, so I figured it couldn't be that hard to modify the game (and it wasn't). Hence, the Need4Speed mod. It has done exactly what I had hoped it would do, so I restarted a new game the other night, so that I could play all the way through with my mod. It has been a blast so far.
There are still a couple changes that need to be made to refine the mod, but I think they're minor. The AI generates ships with very few rudder and engine tunings, and that needs to be fixed with a script, so that the AI generates at least some ships with max tunings - for a challenge. The other thing is that missiles might be too fast now - I finally got to use some last night and they are right quick. But - they don't turn any better, so a faster missile that doesn't turn any better can be evaded. Again, all of this makes combat seem a lot more like fighter jet combat
The only thing this mod sort of throws out of whack is the fact that there are no longer any TP's or TS's that can out-run any fighter. Personally, this makes the most sense to me, since transports shouldn't be faster than a fighter craft. But, a lot of people rely on fast transports with shields to excape OOS combat.
I think the solution with this mod is simply to be smart about where you place factories. There is a lot more emphasis with this mod to place your first factories in systems with good AI defense. To me, this makes sense, since in the early stages of the game you would tend to be more cautious anyway.
Once you have the money to build in more hazardous sectors, you're going to want to make sure you have M6 corvettes for sector defense. And since this is something most people do anyway, I don't see much change here. If anything, it puts an even higher importance on having corvettes for defense, and I like that.
Finally, with all the fighter speeds jacked up, it puts more emphasis on on TS's again. Now that speed for TP's is less of an issue, the cargo space of a TS becomes more important in several cases. I find myself in my new game using Dolphins more and Mantas less - because the speed of a 210 TP doesn't really matter when the slowest M3 is now 350
Overall, I'm very please with the mod. It changes combat, but it also changes the game dynamics a bit, in a way that makes logical sense to me.
Just curious if you've tried your mod with the improved combat AI script Kailric and Dr. Xavia released:
http://www.egosoft.com/x2/forum/viewtopic.php?t=39251
Or the faster laser mods that float around from time to time (as are included in the MWM).
Would love to know how the two/three work together, or if they make combat much too difficult. (although that might not be such a bad thing)
I'm thinking of combining a few ideas to make an ultimate combat mod (incl scripts) for my own personal game, and I'm happy to combine and playtest all of them, but if someone else is already doing that . . .
What do you think of the strafe drive given the new speeds?
http://www.egosoft.com/x2/forum/viewtopic.php?t=39251
Or the faster laser mods that float around from time to time (as are included in the MWM).
Would love to know how the two/three work together, or if they make combat much too difficult. (although that might not be such a bad thing)
I'm thinking of combining a few ideas to make an ultimate combat mod (incl scripts) for my own personal game, and I'm happy to combine and playtest all of them, but if someone else is already doing that . . .
What do you think of the strafe drive given the new speeds?
"Nature's first green is gold" . . . stay golden.
The improved Combat AI script is on my To-Do list of things to try, because I think it would go hand-in-hand with what I've done. As for lasters - my mod increases laser and missile speeds as well as ships, so that everything remains balanced.Burianek wrote:Just curious if you've tried your mod with the improved combat AI script Kailric and Dr. Xavia released:
http://www.egosoft.com/x2/forum/viewtopic.php?t=39251
Or the faster laser mods that float around from time to time (as are included in the MWM).
Would love to know how the two/three work together, or if they make combat much too difficult. (although that might not be such a bad thing)
I'm thinking of combining a few ideas to make an ultimate combat mod (incl scripts) for my own personal game, and I'm happy to combine and playtest all of them, but if someone else is already doing that . . .
What do you think of the strafe drive given the new speeds?
The AI mod, if it works like how I've read, would fix the last problem my mod has.
Right now, the basic problem with the mod, and the combat in general, is that the game generates gimped ships all the time. For instance, a ship may have 20 engine tunings and 30 rudder tunings availabe to it, but when the game code generates an AI enemy in some sector, it might only issue 5 rudder tunings and 8 engine tunings for that ships. So, while that ships might have a top speed of 400 and a top turn of 30% in my mod, because the game doesn't generate it with high tunings, it ends up with 250 speed and 12% rudder - it doesn't realize much of its potential.
But, according to what I've read with the AI mod, he has 4 levels of AI "pilots", and the higher levels have more speed, which means they make use of more tunings. I don't know if that's true for rudder as well, but if it is, that would fix the final problem in the puzzel.
As for the rest of the AI script - dealing with evasive maneuvers and such, I will have to see how it works with my mod, if it is even necessary.
Because one of the things I have noticed is that the AI is actually not that bad - the problem was that the slow speeds coupled with the high turn radius made for bad combat. But at high speeds with lower rudders, you can actually see that the AI isn't totally bad. The AI ships try very hard to dodge and weave and get you off their back, and they also work their speed, slowing down and speeding up, to try and get you to overshoot them. It is quite a different experience with my mod, seeing how the AI works.
If you're up for it, I'd ask you to download the AI script and my Mod and try them together to see how they are (as I am at work, I don't have time to try it). I'd like to get reports from people on how they work together. From what I understand, the AI script writer has written a test game where you can fly against a single AI combatant to test the script.
I'll give it a go myself this weekend probably. I want to see how it works.
I'll do the same this weekend. Looking forward to comparing notes 
BTW sorry to ask this since I'm at work and can't download it, but do you have a readme that lists specifically what you changed, i.e. "mosquito missle from 350 m/s to 500 m/s..." , or is it more like "missles and lasers faster..."
I know I can always look at the types files myself, just wondering if you'd done it. Thx.
BTW sorry to ask this since I'm at work and can't download it, but do you have a readme that lists specifically what you changed, i.e. "mosquito missle from 350 m/s to 500 m/s..." , or is it more like "missles and lasers faster..."
I know I can always look at the types files myself, just wondering if you'd done it. Thx.
"Nature's first green is gold" . . . stay golden.
I have listed speed changes in the readme for every ship that was changed. As for lasers: All were doubled in speed, but halved in lifetime. So they shoot the same distance, just twice as fast getting there.
Same with the missiles - all speeds doubled, all lifetimes halved.
I'll include those changes, and rudder numbers, next update.
Same with the missiles - all speeds doubled, all lifetimes halved.
I'll include those changes, and rudder numbers, next update.
They all work extremely well together!
To be honest, I'm kind of plagarizing some of the ideas Shara came up with in regards to higher speeds / lower rudder and coming up with my own rebalance. Some of you will like Shara's version. Some of you may prefer mine. (When I release it)
I'm going to release my own ship speed / turning / laser / missile complete rebalance with my version 0.25 economy fix incorporated within it as soon as v 1.4 comes out. (Don't want to release one for a week or so than turn around and rerelease it after the patch for version control reasons) I'm playing through a working prototype right now and tweaking / hammering out issues.
But using a mod like this with the Xai combat AI is very effective. You can still pretty much toast another comparable ship if it's one on one cause unless he's got a much higher rudder than you (M3 vs. M5) you can pretty much stay on his tail. Fighting multiple opponents is extremely difficult now though, they really make you work to stay alive. (Finally a reason for wingmen?) I'm flying a captured Bayamon right now, and having a blast!
To be honest, I'm kind of plagarizing some of the ideas Shara came up with in regards to higher speeds / lower rudder and coming up with my own rebalance. Some of you will like Shara's version. Some of you may prefer mine. (When I release it)
I'm going to release my own ship speed / turning / laser / missile complete rebalance with my version 0.25 economy fix incorporated within it as soon as v 1.4 comes out. (Don't want to release one for a week or so than turn around and rerelease it after the patch for version control reasons) I'm playing through a working prototype right now and tweaking / hammering out issues.
But using a mod like this with the Xai combat AI is very effective. You can still pretty much toast another comparable ship if it's one on one cause unless he's got a much higher rudder than you (M3 vs. M5) you can pretty much stay on his tail. Fighting multiple opponents is extremely difficult now though, they really make you work to stay alive. (Finally a reason for wingmen?) I'm flying a captured Bayamon right now, and having a blast!
"Nature's first green is gold" . . . stay golden.
yeah, you gotta remember the firing rates are in tlaser.
mass driver fires over 3 times as often as a bhept, so if you want to compare hull damage take that into account.
Also, just an fyi, from digging through your types files, I can't remember perfectly but it looked like you switched turning rates for some of your M3s and M5s, making M3s have higher turning rates. Not positive, but worth a glance.
Great ideas!
mass driver fires over 3 times as often as a bhept, so if you want to compare hull damage take that into account.
Also, just an fyi, from digging through your types files, I can't remember perfectly but it looked like you switched turning rates for some of your M3s and M5s, making M3s have higher turning rates. Not positive, but worth a glance.
Great ideas!
"Nature's first green is gold" . . . stay golden.
Wait'll you see the difference fighting multiple opponentsShara wrote: I am glad to hear they work together well. I'll have to load up the AI scripts asap.
Oh, the combat ai script only adjusts enemy speed at the point in time you fire on them (they recognize you as enemy/target) It does not adjust rudder setting, but some simple code additions could take care of that.
Problem is, if you made those code additions, and used the script w/o a mod that nerfs rudders you'd be flying against ridiculously rudder maxxed ships all the time, so I don't know if the script should adjust rudders or not.
Personally, I'm leaning toward the approach you abandoned of only having 3-4 rudder upgrades possible. I don't think there needs to be 500% variation in the rudder performance of an ai disco, that's just ridiculous imho. I guess I don't mind the fact that you have to start over to reinitialize all the ships.
"Nature's first green is gold" . . . stay golden.
It is possible for an M3 to have a higher rudder than an M5. It depends on the ship in question.Burianek wrote:yeah, you gotta remember the firing rates are in tlaser.
mass driver fires over 3 times as often as a bhept, so if you want to compare hull damage take that into account.
Also, just an fyi, from digging through your types files, I can't remember perfectly but it looked like you switched turning rates for some of your M3s and M5s, making M3s have higher turning rates. Not positive, but worth a glance.
Great ideas!
I basically put everyone on a scale for max rudder capability: 24%-32%. The most maneuverable M3 has 32% rudder, and the most maneuverable M4 has 32% rudder, and same with the most maneuverable M5.
This means that the most maneuverable M3 (32%) will outmaneuver the least maneuverable M5 (26%). And this difference can be more apparent when you take into account rudder tunings.
To me, it is important to keep the rudders close together. The margin of difference between the most maneuverable ship and the least maneuverable ship should be small.
Your suggestion that I go back to limiting rudder tunings to 3-5... That is the logical way to solve this problem, which is why I did it that way the first time. But I ran into that problem where an existing AI ship would have 20 rudder tunings, and coupled with my mod would make it super-rudder... hard to kill.
BUT - I am thinking now: a better solution might be to simply write a script that you run to initialize all ships in the game that currently exist, and reset all their rudders to 3-5 tunings. This would put everyone under the cap, and every fighter would be balanced.
Is this type of script possible?
If it is, it solves the problem. Then I can go back and change ALL rudders on all fighters (and M6's) to only have between 3-5 tunings.
Yes, it is. Would take a minute to run, and it will only run on ships in space, so it won't catch all ships, but it's possible. Could run it every hour or so, and odds are you'll get most ships while they're in space. Not the most elegant solution, but worth it if someone doesn't want to restart.Shara wrote:
Your suggestion that I go back to limiting rudder tunings to 3-5... That is the logical way to solve this problem, which is why I did it that way the first time. But I ran into that problem where an existing AI ship would have 20 rudder tunings, and coupled with my mod would make it super-rudder... hard to kill.
BUT - I am thinking now: a better solution might be to simply write a script that you run to initialize all ships in the game that currently exist, and reset all their rudders to 3-5 tunings. This would put everyone under the cap, and every fighter would be balanced.
Is this type of script possible?
Or you could just start a new game. Factories and ships are 'created' according to your mod specifications at game start. That's why if you apply a mod mid game you'll have super-ships hanging about. Starting over while the mod is active solves this problem as all ships will be created according to the new rules.
The combat ai script alters engine tunings for a ship that it determines is under attack by the player. An elegant solution, only disadvantage is you can't scan the ship before you attack it to see what you're up against. Not that big a difference in their world, as engine tunings don't make that much of a difference. But as we both know, in the low rudder universe, it can make all the difference in the world.
"Nature's first green is gold" . . . stay golden.