Uk public sector pensions - pensions are pay

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The_Abyss
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Uk public sector pensions - pensions are pay

Post by The_Abyss » Wed, 17. Sep 08, 00:54

When anyone takes a new job, there are always various considerations to take into account. Will I like it, does the boss smell, how much hopliday will I get? Etc. One question should be; how much will my pension be?

A question answered which is increasingly being noticed, seeing as it is the tax payer that is answering it more frequently than ever before. The cost of pensions for public sector workers currently sits outsite the fiscal rules set out by Gordon Brown, both as chancellor and prime minister.

Average public sector full-time weekly pay is now just under £500 compared with £440 a week for the private sector (Source: National Statistics).

In addition to better pay, actuarial calculations show that the public sector government-guaranteed, fully inflation-linked pensions, paid from age 60 or even earlier, are worth at least 30% of each worker's salary, each week. That means a median public sector earner on £500 a week also earns another £150 every week in the form of pension accrual (deferred pay), making a total average full-time public sector worker's pay at least £650 per week.

In contrast, an average private sector worker on £440 a week, with no private pension, effectively earns £210 less each week than the public employee, when today's pay plus deferred pay in promised pensions is considered.

Even assuming an average employer contribution to a private pension of around 6.8% of salary only adds £30pw which would boost private workers average pay to £470 a week. This is still £180 less each week in pay and pensions than public sector workers. This reality does not seem to be factored into the latest public sector threatened pay strikes.

Contracting out in an unfunded scheme is a makes no sense: However, for public sector workers in unfunded public sector pension schemes, this contracting out is a nonsense. In an unfunded scheme, there is no fund building up to pay the workers' S2P in future. All the money will still have to be found by future taxpayers!

In effect, public sector workers in unfunded public sector pension schemes (such as civil service, NHS, teachers etc) are not paying anything for their state second pension. They will get it for free. Furthermore, they start receiving pensions at age 60 as part of the public sector pension scheme, whereas state pension age will rise to 68 in the future.

So contracting out amounts to a hidden pay boost for public workers and hidden subsidy for public sector employers today, which will have to be made up by taxpayers in future.

Hidden costs: None of the costs of public sector pensions are included in the Chancellor's 'fiscal rules' - they are hidden away as if they do not exist. But there are nearly 6 million public sector workers altogether - one-fifth of the entire labour force, who are being paid more today and will also be paid better pensions in future.

It is not the fault of the public sector unions that they are demanding better pay and conditions for their workers. That is their job. But it is surely the job of Government to behave responsibly with our money. At the very least, the public should be told the truth about the future build up of liabilities.


Private sector pension provision has collapsed, as final salary schemes have closed and employer contributions are cut, but public sector schemes remain unaffected. Hiding the true costs off balance sheet does not fit with transparent and open Government. It is time for proper openness about all aspects of public sector pensions. An independent inquiry into the costs, both now and into the future, is long overdue.

It isn't quite as glamorous as Northern Rock failing, or Lehman, but oddly enough it is costing hundreds of billions more. A fiscal drag on the entire nation. £3.5 billion per year for all public workers in comparison to private workers in fact.

I'm sure the above will be in the Daily Mail tomorrow....thanks Ros ;)

The future of the public service pension is bankrupt. Don't be surprised if this is nailed on to the back of the current fiscal crisis.
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BugMeister
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Post by BugMeister » Wed, 17. Sep 08, 02:09

Civil Service Pension Resource accounts are available for public scrutiny at:
http://www.civilservice-pensions.gov.uk ... aspx#rules
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Post by Golden_Gonads » Wed, 17. Sep 08, 08:43

Bah. I stopped reading at 'Average pay is £500 a week'. Scaling up my hours to full time (I work 32 a week plus whatever overtime I can be bothered), I'd earn a pitiful £290 a week odd - And thats including my below inflation pay-rise thats just kicked in.

Oh - And I get absolutely bugger all pension.

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Post by bob hope » Wed, 17. Sep 08, 10:11

most of the jobs i see around at the moment are all trying to pay out minimal wage, or very close to it very few break the £300 per week barrier for 38 hours, sometimes averages just annoy ten bales of hell out of me
About the name - i was lost for a name on the forum and looking round, then a Bob Hope film came on, and i thought "that will do nicely"

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Post by Al » Wed, 17. Sep 08, 11:42

I wanna job in the public sector. Anyone know of any good ones? :p
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Post by Redvers Ganderpoke » Wed, 17. Sep 08, 12:06

Al wrote:I wanna job in the public sector. Anyone know of any good ones? :p
MP - does that count as Public Sector?

Or PM - not much pay but a good pension.
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Post by RegisterMe » Wed, 17. Sep 08, 12:07

I also think it's true to say that the actuarial assumptions used by the Government (inflation, growth, lifespan etc) for public sector pensions are a lot more positive than those the private sector are allowed to use.
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Post by Al » Wed, 17. Sep 08, 12:45

Redvers Ganderpoke wrote:
Al wrote:I wanna job in the public sector. Anyone know of any good ones? :p
MP - does that count as Public Sector?

Or PM - not much pay but a good pension.
OK let me rephrase that. Anyone know of any good ones that dont involve lying, cheating, back-stabbing and deceitfulness? :p
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Post by pjknibbs » Wed, 17. Sep 08, 13:12

Al wrote: OK let me rephrase that. Anyone know of any good ones that dont involve lying, cheating, back-stabbing and deceitfulness? :p
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Post by Al » Wed, 17. Sep 08, 14:10

Ok let me rephrase it again:

Anyone know of any good ones that dont involve lying, cheating, back-stabbing and deceitfulness or a high probability of being assaulted?
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Post by Mars Mug » Wed, 17. Sep 08, 16:38

Al wrote:Ok let me rephrase it again:

Anyone know of any good ones that dont involve lying, cheating, back-stabbing and deceitfulness or a high probability of being assaulted?
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Post by BugMeister » Wed, 17. Sep 08, 16:51

it may seem that every public servant receives a generous package, but I suspect that for the majority, this is not the case..

- the matter is heavily weighted toward the upper-echelons and this has not been so apparent in former times
- as I have mentioned before - percentage pay increases ultimately favour the best paid - the gap increases exponentially..

- that's the trouble with averages, and it's why the CS Unions are up in arms about their current pay negotiations..
- naturally, the upper echelons are banded together against them..
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Post by Rapier » Wed, 17. Sep 08, 20:13

BugMeister wrote:it may seem that every public servant receives a generous package, but I suspect that for the majority, this is not the case..
Like for like, public sector workers are typically paid less than private sector counterparts. My own experience of leaving the 'public sector (actually working for a [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QUANGO]QUANGO[url]) for an equivalent job was an immediate 10% pay increase. As pointed out, the pension isn't so good (still final salary, but with higher employee contributions). The higher average salary is probably due to the nature of the work in the public sector which has a more management heavy structure (whether you think it's needed or not)

That said, I think the Government and private sector should be much more open about their pension schemes. What the Government is doing with the Civil-Service Pension Scheme is no worse than the games many companies in the private sector are taking.
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Post by thetack » Wed, 17. Sep 08, 21:35

i would like to know who gets that as a public worker, i dont get near that and im on duty 360/24 im even on call on holidays, if i can even take one i get paid for 37 hours and for call outs no other overtime , i start at 0630 and finish at 1630 mon to fri even though i get paid 0700 to 1530 , i had to work with broken ribs, a fractured pelvis and broken toes because i was needed,
i have to

manage the school site
manager the nhs site
source and order all non coriculam resourses
be the fire officer
be the h&s officer
oversee the complete rebuild of the school
do all caretaking duties
security
bus driver
repairs / building
reserch all new special needs equipment
be a male role model
assist parents with modifications to cars , homes and equipment
and many other things

i dont do it for the money i do it for the 90 special needs kids we have, and before anyone starts i gave up a £40 k and job to do it and dont care about the loss of money, so i dont think is unreasonable to hope for a decent pension.

not one of our school support staff gets even half that a week and if you fancy geting beatern up covered in s**t and p***d on we always have posts open , i dout many of our nhs staff get more than £21k and i would like that job even less.

mrs tack is a line manager for the internal it security help desk for a goverment department and she dosnt get near that weekly figure,

sorry if this is a rant but not all public workers have a cushy job some of us work b***y hard for little pay and even little thanks

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Post by RegisterMe » Wed, 17. Sep 08, 23:24

thetack wrote:sorry if this is a rant but not all public workers have a cushy job some of us work b***y hard for little pay and even little thanks
And I for one don't begrudge those that do a penny, and often believe that they should earn a lot more than they do.

It's the middle (rubbish) managers, the people who run the focus groups, the consultants, the "performance measurers", the people who can't provide me with recycling rubbish bags but then threaten to fine me when I use black bin sacks in the recycling bins..... etc etc etc who I object to.

This Labour government has hired (I think) some 700,000 people into the public sector.

There's precious little to show for it.
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Post by Rapier » Wed, 17. Sep 08, 23:43

RegisterMe wrote:This Labour government has hired (I think) some 700,000 people into the public sector.
That's quite some going considering the total size of the civil service is 'only' 490,000:
[ external image ]

Edit: I'm just checking what is defined as 'Civil service' here.

Edit: That is just the Civil Service. For the whole public sector, we go to the ONS. From there you can get figures for the past ten years, which I've put into Excel and OpenOffice formats. It looks more like 500,000 over the past ten years, including about 170,000 growth in local government. That's FTE, so 700,000 people might not be far out... I stand corrected (by myself).
Last edited by Rapier on Thu, 18. Sep 08, 00:12, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by RegisterMe » Wed, 17. Sep 08, 23:56

Well you need to include the NHS which I think is the single biggest employer on the planet (perhaps outside of the Chinese Army?) :-).
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Post by RegisterMe » Wed, 17. Sep 08, 23:59

Here you go

So when I said "civil service" I should have been more precise and talked about "public sector workers".

It would be interesting to understand the "official" differentiation between the two.
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Post by Rapier » Thu, 18. Sep 08, 00:26

Even with my edits above, that is still different from:
ONS wrote:From 1998 public sector employment rose every year to 5,846,000 in June 2005.
The spreadsheets above don't seem to include NHS, Police etc. Adding these in (Excel, OpenOffice), would seem to tie up with those figures. Almost 300,000 of the increase is in the NHS.

And that's enough statistics from me for tonight. ;)

Edit: not quite - Note that although the total numbers are smaller, both the Police and Education sectors have increased numbers by 25% over ten years. They can't all be managers.
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Post by The_Abyss » Thu, 18. Sep 08, 01:27

Rapier wrote:That said, I think the Government and private sector should be much more open about their pension schemes. What the Government is doing with the Civil-Service Pension Scheme is no worse than the games many companies in the private sector are taking.
I would challenge that statement.

Public sector pensions are unfunded, and a future liability which the government is still unable to quantify.

Private sector pensions however are subject to FRS17 accounting, which is extremely rigid, and even then, is also subject to actuarial assumptions taken outside of the actual company, i.e. by the pension trustees who have flexed their independence in several notable instances recently - BHS, Boots, WH Smiths to name but a few.

Could you also name the final salary pension schemes closed by the government in comparison to those closed by the private sector.

There is an enormous polarisation being created within the have and have nots for pensioners in the short to medium term, and the have nots are funding state workers.

As to the comment that public sector workers are paid less than private, I believe I challenged this a while back (some eagle eyed motivated forum user will no doubt find it), but again it goes back to the original topic - pensions are pay = total remuneration. Public sector pensions are not capitalised, they are funded by current workers. Every new public sector worker who isn't in the private sector effectively counts twice for the liability.

Unions need to wake up, government needs to wake up and more importantly, the rest of us need to wake up the fact that this is no longer sustainable.
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