Fallout 76...

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Mightysword
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Re: Fallout 76...

Post by Mightysword » Wed, 28. Nov 18, 08:38

Morkonan wrote:
Mon, 26. Nov 18, 00:38
That poses the question: Should Egosoft embrace the current "paid" Steam Alpha/Beta Model or not?
Eh, it's a double edge sword. In my observation the key to "Early Access release" is that the developers need to be well disciplined and have nerve of steel ... well, maybe not that dramatic but ... close. Basically, I mean they need to have good resistance to 'entitled' backers and focus in their vision, instead of viewing it as a popularity contest. The mindset should be:

- Hey, we have this idea for a great game, and if you have faith in our vision please show us your support.

And not:

- Hey, we'll do this together and in the end it will be a game that YOU want it to be.

I either had backed, backing, follow, or purchased full release of previously Early Access games in decent number, and it's the pattern I had noticed. Games follow the former pattern tend to see the light of the tunnel and end up being decent or great, games that follow the latter pattern tend to end up ... well, death. Sadly, there are far more developers go down the second pattern then the first, and I guess it's a PR thing. They want people to get on board so they throw out all these promisse to make their backers feel important like 'always listen to feedback, transparent and constant feedback" ...etc... and most of those things are eventually their downfall. I don't know if you visit the X4 forum recently and notice this hysteria about "MOAR INFORMATION". Some of that you can attribute to the excitement on the game coming out, but I think for the most part it's just part of that "24/7 news feed" culture we're living in. And when that thirst is not constantly sated ... it can get ugly. Now you look at what happen on the X4 board and then go to an Early Access board ... and it tends to be a lot worse. People haven't paid any thing for X4 and yet if they are still ... think about the entitlement backers allow themselves to have because they had 'paid' for it. ;)

A good example is Folk Tale. In its hayday, it was the picture perfect of PRing: clear roadmap, weekly let's play session or video with the dev, monthly blog ...etc... you know ... the usual stuffs you see people ask of Egosoft about their unreleased game. It went even farther, the original plan for a campaign was scrapped and switch to a skirmish model due to "popular demand", the dev even take off resource to release modding tool ... for a game that is still in Alpha. And guess what ... all of that time and resources had to come from somewhere, eventually all of that mushy mushy talk turn into anxiety and hostility, I think the dev of Folk Tale suffered depression after things gone south. :sceptic:

I feel for them whenever I see Bernd or CBJ, or any other devs had to come out and defend themselves against the demand for more information, stating they can't afford to cut in development time to make these videos want to see ... they speak the truth. Don't think people understand that though. :)
I'm sort of glad that they don't, since there's an air of mystery and expectation there that promotes a purchase. I assume they have plenty of testing help, so that may not be an issue.
That makes sense from the player POV, and I'm kinda of the same. Most of the game I bought I don't really invest that much time following closely, not due to the lack of interest, but I think it's simply more healthy for me. For example I have a very strong interest in Bannerlord, but imagine being someone who try to follow its development for the last few years :doh:

From the developer's POV though, I think it's just a way to protect their vision and more importantly their sanity. I think the embarrassment of releasing a buggy game, or the stress of being on a tight rope financially are nothing compared to the harassment you can get from an Early Access tittle. Commit to Early Access release is like making a pact with Clavicus Vile, there is 1 out of 10 chance of you gonna struck gold, with the other 9 part of you gonna die ... in a very unpleasant way. :D
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Antilogic
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Re: Fallout 76...

Post by Antilogic » Wed, 28. Nov 18, 12:29

Morkonan wrote:
Mon, 26. Nov 18, 00:38
Mightysword wrote:
Sat, 24. Nov 18, 21:33
The thing is Kenshi is an Early Access game, I think it became available on Steam as Alpha 0.3, you know what you signed up for. The game is about to hit 1.0 release any days now, if there is still bugs ... then you can compare. X-Rebirth was released as an official 1.0 release, and it took more than a year later for it to become frustrate free to play (for me at least).
That poses the question: Should Egosoft embrace the current "paid" Steam Alpha/Beta Model or not?
I'm of the strong opinion that no major development houses or publishers should be using this model. Small development teams/indie only.

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Re: Fallout 76...

Post by Morkonan » Wed, 28. Nov 18, 19:52

Antilogic wrote:
Wed, 28. Nov 18, 12:29
Morkonan wrote:
Mon, 26. Nov 18, 00:38
Mightysword wrote:
Sat, 24. Nov 18, 21:33
The thing is Kenshi is an Early Access game, I think it became available on Steam as Alpha 0.3, you know what you signed up for. The game is about to hit 1.0 release any days now, if there is still bugs ... then you can compare. X-Rebirth was released as an official 1.0 release, and it took more than a year later for it to become frustrate free to play (for me at least).
That poses the question: Should Egosoft embrace the current "paid" Steam Alpha/Beta Model or not?
I'm of the strong opinion that no major development houses or publishers should be using this model. Small development teams/indie only.
I think that's a good idea, as well.

Back in the day, before Steam, there were Betas, limited Betas, Limited Open Betas and Stress Tests and the like, with a very select few participating in long-term Beta or Alpha testing/feedback. That limited scope allowed development to be much more focused, I think. BUT, larger houses generally have their crap together and have a "plan" for what they want to be in the game. Smaller houses and indies largely have an "idea" that gets fleshed out in Beta. Egosoft may be a "smaller developer" but they generally already have a good handle on the game they want to produce. And, there sure as heck know, or should know, what the fans want for an X4 game. :)

This just in:

Bethesda to face class-action lawsuit for not fulfilling Fallout 76 refund requests

Shocking! o.0

Apparently, they promised refunds and then bailed on the promise. They told some people that because they bought or used some online, extra, download/content, they were no longer eligible for the 30 day refund offers or something like that. WTF?

This is juicy stuff, full of the internet drama that keeps netizens amused...

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Antilogic
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Re: Fallout 76...

Post by Antilogic » Wed, 28. Nov 18, 20:35

And, there sure as heck know, or should know, what the fans want for an X4 game. :)
Yeah, multiplayer ;)

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Re: Fallout 76...

Post by felter » Thu, 29. Nov 18, 00:19

Before the game was released there were rumours and more than a few people blatantly accusing Bethesda for removing the game from Steam, as they knew it was a pretty bad game and that they expected a lot of refund demands, and if it had been on steam then that is where the refund demands would have been made and it was outside of their control. A lot were making the statement as a joke but looking at the way things have turned out, I wouldn't be surprised if it was true.
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Re: Fallout 76...

Post by Rapier » Thu, 29. Nov 18, 11:26

I'm not shocked. It's a pretty common tactic for (US particularly) law firms to put out press releases saying they're investigating bringing this or that class-action suit, to see how much business it's likely to drum up if they were to actually do it. It's still several steps removed from Bethesda actually having to do anything about responding to a class-action.
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Re: Fallout 76...

Post by muppetts » Thu, 29. Nov 18, 12:30

https://www.pcgamer.com/bethesdas-solut ... _pcgamerfb

Now i'm not a big fan of the special edition games but I can see some people get excited for some cool items but I do feel that this must come as false advertising as the bag in 'bag gate' was supposed to be canvas and other have noted that the word 'canvas' is now being removed from various online descriptions (why bother, horse bolted, barn burned down and they built a Starbucks by now).
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Re: Fallout 76...

Post by felter » Thu, 29. Nov 18, 14:15

The bag issue is one thing that may just get them into some serious trouble, because as Muppets pointed out that's is false advertising which is illegal in most countries. Making changes now to how it was/is advertised after the fact will not help them in the least, neither will the current offer they are making to disappointed customers. I also don't buy the excuse we couldn't get the canvas material, and why replace it with nylon, they went from one material of quality to probably one of the cheapest and worst materials out there.

Update:

I went online and did a quick search, I had no problems finding many traders dealing in materials that had plenty of canvas material for sale. For example: WBL Fabrics that's UK based manufacturer and retailer there are tons of Chinese ones. Nylon is a different matter it comes in many different varieties and colours from the cheap to the very expensive and there is no shortage of it around. To me it sounds more like it was easier for them to buy the bags pre-made in bulk made from nylon, rather than spending time and resources to source and acquire a custom made bag out of canvas, which probably would have cost them a lot more to get them made. So no surprise as I do think they told a blatant lie about the bags, and a quick online search proves it.
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Re: Fallout 76...

Post by Stars_InTheirEyes » Thu, 6. Dec 18, 15:55

From bad to worse...

"Bethesda leaked Fallout 76 customer names, addresses, contact details
[...]
The data protection breach happened last night, as customers filing support tickets with Bethesda began receiving support tickets from other people, too - which included usernames, names, addresses and other contact details.

Screenshots posted to Twitter showed customers had somehow been given access to details usually confined to Besthesda's own internal customer support system - which was full of complaints about those damn Fallout 76 bags that Bethesda is now going to replace. [...]"

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2018 ... ct-details
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Re: Fallout 76...

Post by muppetts » Thu, 6. Dec 18, 18:09

Someone just got fired
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Re: Fallout 76...

Post by Antilogic » Thu, 6. Dec 18, 19:13

At this point it wouldn't surprise me if they got promoted.

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Re: Fallout 76...

Post by Morkonan » Thu, 6. Dec 18, 21:48

Antilogic wrote:
Thu, 6. Dec 18, 19:13
At this point it wouldn't surprise me if they got promoted.
Holy $417ballz... that was funny.

I can see the "high fives" going around the Bethesda office, right now.

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Re: Fallout 76...

Post by Mightysword » Fri, 7. Dec 18, 02:09

Morkonan wrote:
Thu, 6. Dec 18, 21:48
Antilogic wrote:
Thu, 6. Dec 18, 19:13
At this point it wouldn't surprise me if they got promoted.
Holy $417ballz... that was funny.

I can see the "high fives" going around the Bethesda office, right now.
Eh on a serious note this may not be something that just gonna go away with meme. I don't know the extend of this snafu yet, but if it involves European clients then things can get quite unpleasant and costly for Bethesa under the GDPR compliance. :shock:
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Re: Fallout 76...

Post by Morkonan » Fri, 7. Dec 18, 18:02

Mightysword wrote:
Fri, 7. Dec 18, 02:09
Eh on a serious note this may not be something that just gonna go away with meme. I don't know the extend of this snafu yet, but if it involves European clients then things can get quite unpleasant and costly for Bethesa under the GDPR compliance. :shock:
If they can show that it wasn't due to negligence and was, instead, an "honest mistake" (lolz) then I doubt they'll face much in the way of fines/penalties for this. I know that the EU wants to take this stuff seriously, so it's possible they may rattle their microphones at this. But, I don't think anything will come of it. It's not a traditional "data breach" sort of thing, where some hacker jumps in and grabs a plain text file full of customer info and credit-card numbers because a company didn't want the inconvenience of having to manage certificates. At best, what did the receivers get? One/three person's real-life info?

It's funny that this coincides with Bethesda's seemingly uncaring attitude towards customer fulfillment. Their "customer service support" system... is borked. I'm sure they spent dozens of minutes putting it together... :)

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Re: Fallout 76...

Post by felter » Fri, 7. Dec 18, 18:53

Morkonan wrote:
Fri, 7. Dec 18, 18:02
I'm sure they spent dozens of minutes putting it together... :)
Just like their games. :D
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Re: Fallout 76...

Post by Morkonan » Fri, 7. Dec 18, 20:23

:)

The Pruld does "Take me home, country roads."

The subtitles are priceless.

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Re: Fallout 76...

Post by felter » Fri, 7. Dec 18, 21:04

Todd Howard was one of the judges for the Game Awards student game award last night. I can't say much for his Judging, especially as he judge Fallout 76 as a game worth launching or even some of the issues that has arisen around it, I wouldn't want him judging anything.
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Re: Fallout 76...

Post by Mightysword » Fri, 7. Dec 18, 22:02

Morkonan wrote:
Fri, 7. Dec 18, 18:02
Mightysword wrote:
Fri, 7. Dec 18, 02:09
Eh on a serious note this may not be something that just gonna go away with meme. I don't know the extend of this snafu yet, but if it involves European clients then things can get quite unpleasant and costly for Bethesa under the GDPR compliance. :shock:
If they can show that it wasn't due to negligence
Wouldn't be a lot harder to prove this comparing to them simply being hacked? If they got hacked by, say, the Russian mafia then they can at least say they did all they could and can't help it. Seeing this is an self-inflicting wound, they'll need quite a bit of luck to convince anyone this is NOT due to negligence.
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Re: Fallout 76...

Post by pjknibbs » Fri, 7. Dec 18, 22:03

You know, maybe rather than linking developer bonuses to the Metacritic scores (as Bethesda famously did with Fallout: New Vegas, where the developers Obsidian missed out on a big bonus because the game's Metacritic score was only 84 rather than the required 85), it should be the salaries and bonuses of the top guys that depend on those? Maybe Todd Howard and his ilk would be less willing to push a clearly unfinished piece of trash like FO76 onto the buying public if his own take-home would be affected.

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Re: Fallout 76...

Post by Morkonan » Sat, 8. Dec 18, 00:34

pjknibbs wrote:
Fri, 7. Dec 18, 22:03
...it should be the salaries and bonuses of the top guys that depend on those? Maybe Todd Howard and his ilk would be less willing to push a clearly unfinished piece of trash like FO76 onto the buying public if his own take-home would be affected.
While it sounds like a possibly good idea, it's really not. Nobody wants their salary linked to the "opinions" of someone else. They want their salary based upon how well they performed their job. Unless they work in government... Then, they want their salary linked to how long they've managed to survive. :)

IMO, if there's some sort of performance factor involved, it should be linked directly with performance. IF Bethesda sells a bajillion copies, those who worked on it should get their promised bonuses. If they don't... they shouldn't. I don't think Todd is going to be crying about a lack of a paycheck at the end of this.

Look at the latest "Big Hit" movies. Most of them are probably crap in terms of "worth." But, people go see them and the money rolls in and people get paid for making them. Were they worth making? Well, for money returns, sure. Were they worth seeing? Eh... It depends on what you like to watch. Were they artistic masterpieces? Definitely not and they'll be forgotten in five years.

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