Russia-Ukraine War

[mr.WHO]

I recall the original idea of whataboutism was to "cover" something very outrageous by counterpoint with something similar, yet much lesser in severity.
The idea of whataboutism has been misused in recent years to avoid discussion - it's perfectly fine to ask and compare things that are comparable (despite some level of subjectivity).


Fortunately, present day Russia provide us with pure and classic whataboutism:
What about US Iraq/Afganistan last 20 years - while they outdo the destruction to Ukraine and world economy in just 6 months.
What about incorrect US drone strikes - while casually bombing multiple cities several times a day.
What about Guantanamo and ocasional waterboarding - while having starvation level POV camps, bombing their own POV camps, having civilian torture chambers in every bigger occupied city.
What about Iraq WMD - while throwing secret bio-labs, nazi/satanist/iluminati/global anti-russian conspiracy.

It's like Russia took every single Western mistake and instead learning from it, compiled "hold my vodka" check list.





Now, here is an example of "valid whataboutism" when bringing things on par:

<Russia> What about Ukraine shelling in Donbas?
<Me> What about Russian alcoholism?
<Russia> What?
<Me> I'm quite sure, that before February 2022, on yearly average more people died in Russia proper due to alcoholism, than due to Ukraine shelling Donbas (it was called frozen conflict for a reason).
<Russia> That's whataboutism.
<Me> No, I'm quite sure that it's much easier and cheaper to save more Russian lives and bring more prosperity by curing alcoholism...than launching the full scale invasion.
<Russia> But we can cure alcoholism, by sending conscripts - dead people don't have alcohol problems.
<Me> ...oh FFS!

[Observe]

Following this thread is like watching a dog chase his tail.

Perhaps, but personally, I find this thread interesting and educational. There are many things that I didn't know about the region in question, which participants in this thread have helped me understand. Thank you.

[mr.WHO]

Looks like Fides/Orban started doing shenanigans in Hungarian parliment, obstructing Finland and Sweden NATO accession.

They claim they wait for Turkey, which honestly seems like BS excuse.

[felter]

Looks like the Russian front line in the south is beginning to crumble, and I wouldn't be surprised if Kherson falls in a matter of days, and if that happens it will probably be the beginning of the end for Russia's invasion. Watched one video where the Ukrainians were complaining that the Russians were running away so fast they can't keep up with them, and it looks like they were not exaggerating. It's going so fast it potentially will cause issue for Ukraine as it will be hard to supply their troops, that's their biggest problem right now, making sure their troops have enough ammo and resources not just to attack the Russians, but to protect themselves from any counter-attack.

One of the problems for Russia is that they are boosting their front lines with these new recruits with no training and bad equipment and limited ammo and supplies. The pro Russian bloggers have been reporting things like they are being issued with rusty weapons, while being told to bring their own sleeping bag because Russia is not giving them one. It is also being reported that they are being told to get tampons and pads from girlfriends and wife's as they are good at staunching the flow from bullet holes. Take all of this with a pinch of salt as they could just be propaganda, there is no way of confirming them, but these stories are coming out of Russia not Ukraine.

By the way, if Kherson does fall I reckon that will be the trigger for Putin to use nukes, if it does fall, and he doesn't use them I don't think he ever will.

[Falcrack]

As to the nuke threshold, I don't think Putin would use nukes until the pre Feb 24th lines were about to be breached, most particularly that of Crimea. There is a very narrow land bridge which would require any Ukrainian offensive into Crimea to become very concentrated, which would make an attractive target for a nuclear attack.

I may be wrong though, but I don't think losing Kherson would cross Putin's nuclear threshold. Not enough Russians would buy Putin's explanation that he was merely defending Russian land for using nukes to defend Kherson. But he might get away with it over Crimea.

[felter]

Remember way back I said one of the reasons for the war was water for Crimea, one of the first things they did when the war began, and they took Kherson was turn that water on for Crimea, that's the thing Kherson controls the water and the access to Crimea, if Russia looses Kherson then they lose that water and access to Crimea, Kherson is that bridge to Crimea, without it Russia is and Crimea are screwed.

the land mines (second video), traversing them, must have been the biggest butt clenching moment of all time.

[JSDD]

We all know Putin's narrative about UKR nazis is outright lie (pretty much everything from Kremlin is).

Ah, so Selensky's bodyguard didn't have a SS "Totenkopf" inspired patch on his back in a deleted from his social media accounts back on Sept. 13. during his visit in Izyum. And I didn't see on Welt TV a Ukrainian Tank with a white Swastika on it. Good to know. Since I was pretty sure I've seen Nazi insignia in coat of arms of the Azov goons. The same group that threatened the freshly elected Selensky to lynch him if didn't shut up.

...
As to Azov being nazis, I am not denying that - I just do not buy for moment the idea that they are representative of the ukrainian society or their fight against Putin's aggression. I think Azov's importance is inflated by pro-Kremlin sources in order to demonize Ukrainian resistance and justify Putin's war in Ukraine.
...

seems like you havent followed what happend in ukraine during the period 2014-2022
in many neighborhoods, ukrainians started to build "self-defence camps" where children where "educated" in military training
(guess who those teachers were? yepp, nazis)

there was a nazi interior minister after the coup d'etat in 2014, who made sure that "his ideology" gets access to class rooms / infiltrates the society
(as it were in 1933 in germany. it doesnt build up over night ... that takes a bit of time)

anti-russian sentiment has spread all over ukraine ... some might say"understandable since those goons have stolen crimea" ... but ..
it turned into a general hate to everything that is kind-of "russian", thanks to those who spread the hatred to russians
finally ... being pro-russian is a stance almost everybody in ukraines society looked down to as traitors / terrorists

it all developed over time ...
and azov (being the "loudest" among other groups) helped spreading and enforcing that kind of thinking in (ukrainian) society

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpV16BQ ... el=NBCNews
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsHBdyq ... =APArchive
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9foJFF ... dioLiberty

any 10-year-old child who was in such a camp may be potentially fighting in the current war !!!

--------------------------------

i give you another example:
go to germany, open up a school to "defend the homeland against austria/russia/whoever", and start teaching children what to think about your supposed "enemy"
=> you'd find yourself quicker in jail than you can say "jonferson space dynamics division" ^^

--------------------------------

today, as the war makes people from ukraine to align whith either the radical pro-ukrainian side or the pro russian side, they are potentially "kept" in a info bubble:
either this ... or that

[felter]

While I have not seen any evidence of any Ukrainian kids fighting in the war, Putin's ally Ramzan Kadyrov has said he is sending his 14,15, and 16-year-old sons to fight in Putin's war, and he has been training them to do so for years. Now that's whataboutism.

[Cpt.Jericho]

While I have not seen any evidence of any Ukrainian kids fighting in the war, Putin's ally Ramzan Kadyrov has said he is sending his 14,15, and 16-year-old sons to fight in Putin's war, and he has been training them to do so for years. Now that's whataboutism.

Haven't seen Ukrainian kids with guns on conventional or alternative media so far. But haven't seen kids being captured or killed from the other side either. #nonews

[Warenwolf]

You cherry pick your arguments like the best out there and then collate them over a period of 8 years. Also do not presume that I have no knowledge about Ukraine and/or that part of Europe. Difference being, I don't have an axe to grind with NATO/West...

Compared to most of eastern Europe and few western European countries where far right ideology and love with autocracy is, if not outright forming a plurality, it is part of mainstream political discourse, in Ukraine far right parties have far less political influence, especially from their heyday immediately after 2014.
In 2019 parliament election, far right parties in Ukraine formed unified political block - and won 2.15% (or thereabout) failing to pass 5 % threshold. In earlier presidential election, the spring same year, they won 1.6 % of vote.

Which means that however you slice it, up to 97.75 % of Ukrainians that voted did not share the far right ideology (which I will not call Nazi, because it does not fulfill criteria for that particular fascist movement but that is just nitpicking). This downward going spiral has been consistent last 8 years. In fact people in Ukraine elected a jew who spoke Russian growing up, as the president of the country.

Which makes this narrative justifying Russia's so-called denazification in Ukraine exercise in dishonesty and selectively picking data.
It is not like Russia is not indoctrinating kids:

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/ ... crackdown/

https://meduza.io/en/feature/2015/07/16 ... t-soldiers

And in context of Putin's Russia's assault on Ukraine one has to wonder why are Putin and his supporters giving so much attention to political movements in Ukraine who have been losing political power and cannot get over 2.5 % of vote in that country? I think the answer gives itself.

[mr.WHO]

Remember way back I said one of the reasons for the war was water for Crimea, one of the first things they did when the war began, and they took Kherson was turn that water on for Crimea, that's the thing Kherson controls the water and the access to Crimea, if Russia looses Kherson then they lose that water and access to Crimea, Kherson is that bridge to Crimea, without it Russia is and Crimea are screwed.

the land mines (second video), traversing them, must have been the biggest butt clenching moment of all time.

When you look at the map, you will see that the canal is much further to the East from Cherson city, on the other side of Dnieper river.
This mean Cherson is rather useless for protecting the canal, especially that Ukaine forces to N and NE are already closer than occupied Cherson is.

Another part is that "Crimea water issue" was, as usual, just and excuse.
Most of Crimea water issues are due to old, inneficient and falling apart water management.
This could be fixed by the fracture of money Russia put into invasion.
Crimea could be fine, even without canal, if Russia would put a proper effort to it.

Last, but not least with all that cheap gas that Russia is swimming in, they could even just go with seawater desalination plants.
I recall recently Twitch banned russian trolling chanel that had camera on gas stove turned on 24/7 with a gas bill of abour 1.5 Euro/month.
Someone should counter troll with spamming "maybe you should use this to boil fresh water for Crimea?".

[Warenwolf]

Crimea could be fine, even without canal, if Russia would put a proper effort to it.

Do not be so dismissive of problems which were evident for people already 100 years ago. North Crimean Canal WAS the solution to water issues of Crimea, allowing for agricultural expansion on the peninsula.

Desalination plants are too expensive in per liter cost in the Crimean conditions for commercial (mainly agricultural) use - and Russians have already built desalination plants in Crimea for public use. And that is true even if powered by cheap Russian gas. You can't undercut rain and Dnieper river when it comes to costs...

Sure improvement in infrastructure may reduce the water wastage but you are sorely mistaken if you think that saving water through water management, even at 100% of current use, could offset the shutting down of the North Crimean Canal, I have bridge to sell you - it stood for 85% of water supplies to Crimea of which 82% was used for agriculture and industry.

[mr.WHO]

Sure improvement in infrastructure may reduce the water wastage but you are sorely mistaken if you think that saving water through water management, even at 100% of current use, could offset the shutting down of the North Crimean Canal, I have bridge to sell you - it stood for 85% of water supplies to Crimea of which 82% was used for agriculture and industry.

No, the water is there - yearly rainfall, ground water and desalination would be sufficient with proper management, waste reduction and building some more reservoirs.
It would require some effort, but so is the full scale war.

[Warenwolf]

No, the water is there - yearly rainfall, ground water and desalination would be sufficient with proper management, waste reduction and building some more reservoirs.
It would require some effort, but so is the full scale war.

No, the water is not there. That is why they built the canal in first place and committed over 10 000 workers and decades of work to build it during the times of SSSR.

Whether that is reason for a war - well NO - and Ukrainians would not have turned off water if their land was not stolen in first place too. But that is beside the point.

[mr.WHO]

No, the water is not there. That is why they built the canal in first place and committed over 10 000 workers and decades of work to build it during the times of SSSR.

Canal was build in times of USSR - technology progressed a lot since that time.
As I said, Crimea water management is old, wasteful and inneficient, so is their agriculture and industry (it was very neglected since the fall of USSR).
If they would apply more modern technologies, to increase water retention and decrease agriculture/industry demand, they would have enough water without any need for canal.

You don't even need latest state of the art green technologies, nor they were under sanction untill 2022 (you could not do business directly in Crimea, but you still could do business with Russia and her proxies).

Such investments would probably be much better long term solution and would actually boost Crimean populace favorability for Russia.
Yet, they decide it's better to go in guns blazing.


That's why water narrative is just an excuse.

[Warenwolf]

No, the water is not there. That is why they built the canal in first place and committed over 10 000 workers and decades of work to build it during the times of SSSR.

Canal was build in times of USSR - technology progressed a lot since that time.
As I said, Crimea water management is old, wasteful and inneficient, so is their agriculture and industry (it was very neglected since the fall of USSR).
If they would apply more modern technologies, to increase water retention and decrease agriculture/industry demand, they would have enough water without any need for canal.

You don't even need latest state of the art green technologies, nor they were under sanction untill 2022 (you could not do business directly in Crimea, but you still could do business with Russia and her proxies).

Such investments would probably be much better long term solution and would actually boost Crimean populace favorability for Russia.

Do you have any sources or is that from "trust me bro'"? Because logically or technologically what you write makes no sense and I have read lot of weird stuff in this thread.

[mr.WHO]

Do you have any sources or is that from "trust me bro'"? Because logically or technologically what you write makes no sense and I have read lot of weird stuff in this thread.

It's hard to dig out the proper report with numbers as it was from a few years ago.
Here is a general overview:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aqq8clIceys


In second half of video is the reason (Russia ferry too much new population and too extensive agriculture) as well as listing non-violent solutions to the issue.
Additionally, to rub salt into the wound, it close the video with "violent option" - simply bomb canal dam into oblivion and call it a day.
Nobody would bat an eye and schrug it off as "water skirmish".

[Warenwolf]

Do you have any sources or is that from "trust me bro'"? Because logically or technologically what you write makes no sense and I have read lot of weird stuff in this thread.

It's hard to dig out the proper report with numbers as it was from a few years ago.
Here is a general overview:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aqq8clIceys


In second half of video is the reason (Russia ferry too much new population and too extensive agriculture) as well as listing non-violent solutions to the issue.
Additionally, to rub salt into the wound, it close the video with "violent option" - simply bomb canal dam into oblivion and call it a day.
Nobody would bat an eye and schrug it off as "water skirmish".

The video is made by a youtuber, which may or may not be reliable (quick google search shows a posts claiming he predicted fall of china within 10 years in 2010) but ultimately does not list his sources. Generally speaking, bar few exceptions, I consider anyone relying on a youtube content creator for his information to be very naive.
The one thing I like about Perun is when he does make a claim, he follows up from where he got info from. I can disagree with his conclusions but at least I know how he came to them...



But I did not want to disregard it on technicalities (although a big one) so I took 10 minutes to listen to the guy. He did not make the claims you made - he merely restated Russian announced plans but did not say what you said in your post as conclusion.
The Kremlin regime did claim it would solve the water issues but frankly taking that at face value is... We know what 2024 plan was - you are looking at it's phase 1.

But lets entertain the idea that plan purposed from Kremlin was honest and genuine:

First - desalination plants cannot support agriculture bar few products. Even Israeli who are best in this tech struggle getting their price under 0.5 dollar per liter. That is WAAY above for minimum for a profitable agriculture in scale Crimea had. That is today's most modern technology in a climate which benefits desalination processes.

Second - building canals from Don river (through what territory?) and Kuban. Sure you can pipe them through pipes (everything is possible) but frankly war may be cheaper. Also building that within two years for under 200M !? Sure.... I have bridge to sell you.

Third - they lie about increase in population. But I will not go into that.

Fourth - using water from underground sources in Crimea runs into issue of salination of the ground*. Which means your agriculture becomes gradually impossible since plants struggle to grow in salty earth.

And this is why I said that your idea of better water management do not make logical and technological sense. You cannot remove 1 000 000 000 liters of water yearly and just "fix the issue" by investment or better organization. This type of things take years to solve.

Note that youtube video did not make the claims or overly commented the purposed plan to solve the water issues from Kremlin I listed above nor did they make the claim that water is not an issue/would not be an issue if certain steps are taken like you indicated in your posts.

*Source
https://qirim.news/en/kryimskie-tataryi ... reshwater/

PS:
Finally, the youtuber you linked to is also doing commercials for NordVPN - anyone who does that last two years does not care about the products they are marketing.

[Tamina]

You two are talking so specific and self-assured about such a specialized topic, as if you both had a PhD in Crimea Water Management, which I somehow doubt at that moment.

[Warenwolf]

You two are talking so specific and self-assured about such a specialized topic, as if you both had a PhD in Crimea Water Management, which I somehow doubt at that moment.

Fair enough.
You have participated in this thread, commenting on political and sometimes other aspects of the conflict without having a proven your credentials in politics. So the pot calling the kettle black and all of that.
Also you would be surprised how eclectic bunch of people frequent this forum.

Anyway, back in 70s warden of an institution for people with heavy social and learning disabilities (of the type where they scream at walls) got one his tires stolen from his car that was parked outside. He had spare but the bolts were gone. Seeing his predicament one of the "inmates" told him to take his spare wire, unscrew one bolt from remaining tires and use the three bolts to fasten the spare tire.
Take from this story whatever you want.