Israel War

[Observe]

Prior to the recent Hamas attack and consequent Israeli reaction, Saudi Arabia was on the cusp on normalizing relations with Israel. This was expected to have a peace domino effect on other Arab countries and could have lead to a long-term solution for Palestine as well.

Why did Hamas open the gates of hell at this time? Because they are hell-bent on the destruction of Israel and peace is the last thing they want. Hamas must go. We can't be having a rabid dog running amok with the purpose of preventing efforts to resolve long standing enmity. That means Hamas must be disarmed and rendered unable to foster violence in the future.

[mr.WHO]

That means Hamas must be disarmed and rendered unable to foster violence in the future.

How to disarm someone who can build and smuggle tens of thousands of rockets on a yearly basis?

Unless Israel haste the deployment of Laser Dome which will allow to get back into status quo (which is Hamas casually launching 10'000-20'000 rockets and Israel intercepting 99,999% of them).

[fiksal]

Instead we have reality...full of war crimes.

yes, and there's the reality

So, for you murdering them is an option as long as there's no or little collateral damage.

is that a controversial way of dealing with large armed group of murderers and kidnappers?

they are welcome to surrender


what actions do you expect to be taken if a similar group enters your home?

[Observe]

How to disarm someone who can build and smuggle tens of thousands of rockets on a yearly basis?

In order to do that, Hamas must be obliterated and the Palestinians need to elect a government who is not going to cause Israeli bombs and missiles to rain down upon their people and they must internally outlaw such groups as Hamas. Palestinians need a responsible government who can work with others to forge stability and prosperity for their people. Otherwise, they are their own worse enemy. Is any of that going to happen? Probably not.

[mr.WHO]

In order to do that, Hamas must be obliterated and the Palestinians need to elect a government who is not going to cause Israeli bombs and missiles to rain down upon their people and they must internally outlaw such groups as Hamas. Palestinians need a responsible government who can work with others to forge stability and prosperity for their people. Otherwise, they are their own worse enemy. Is any of that going to happen? Probably not.

let me re-phrase the question:
How you do this without wiping half of Gaza and exile of the other half?

Aparently already 10-15% of building in Gaza have been destroyed, food and water has been cut off, so we are going there steadily.


I'm all for "an Eye for an Eye", but the equation has been already distorted for many days in favor of "eyes of your entire family, relatives and bystanders for an eye".
Pushing this further is asking for a lot of problems.

[EGO_Aut]

In order to do that, Hamas must be obliterated and the Palestinians need to elect a government who is not going to cause Israeli bombs and missiles to rain down upon their people and they must internally outlaw such groups as Hamas. Palestinians need a responsible government who can work with others to forge stability and prosperity for their people. Otherwise, they are their own worse enemy. Is any of that going to happen? Probably not.

let me re-phrase the question:
How you do this without wiping half of Gaza and exile of the other half?

Aparently already 10-15% of building in Gaza have been destroyed, food and water has been cut off, so we are going there steadily.


I'm all for "an Eye for an Eye", but the equation has been already distorted for many days in favor of "an eyes of your entire family, relatives and bystanders for an eye".
Pushing this further is asking for a lot of problems.

Shouldn't Israel then also stop sending settlers into occupied territories and stop expelling and threatening and killing locals, as they have done for decades? In the West Bank, countless schools were even torn down paid by the EU.
Accepting and adhering to UN resolutions and human rights would also be a good sign. But no, Israel has other goals. Why should Palestinians live in Israel when they can live in Jordan or Sinai?
And now NATO Türkiye is officially against Israel

[Observe]

let me re-phrase the question: How you do this without wiping half of Gaza and exile of the other half?

You can't. That's why Israels actions are irrational, unless their goal is complete eradication of the entire population. The problem is, the harder Israel pounds civilians, the more young Palestinians are going to grow up with the embers of vengeance burning a hole in their hearts. Thus guaranteeing perpetual bloodshed.

Shouldn't Israel then also stop sending settlers into occupied territories and stop expelling and threatening and killing locals, as they have done for decades? In the West Bank, countless schools were even torn down paid by the EU.

I agree with you. Israel, from day one, 75 years ago, stole homes and land and disenfranchised Palestinians in the worst ways possible. Israel would argue that they are surrounded by viscous wolves who would devour them, if not for the tight grip of "control" that they are forced to impose.

[Observe]

Secretary of State Blinken says revitalized Palestinian Authority should govern Gaza after the war.

At some point, what would make the most sense would be for an effective and revitalized Palestinian Authority to have governance and ultimately security responsibility for Gaza. It may involve international agencies that would help provide for both security and governance. We also can’t have — and the Israelis start with this proposition themselves — Israel running or controlling Gaza.

I'm guessing something like that is going to be implemented. Destroy Hamas, support the PA taking over governance of Gaza and rebuild Gaza with international support (money). After Israel is finished pounding the hell out of the place, possibly replace Israeli soldiers in Gaza with UN forces to continue disarming radicals (those who hate Israel) and to keep the law until the PA is up to the task.

One problem, is that the PA is apparently rife with corruption. Oh well, I guess we can't expect those in government to put the people they serve above their own personal interests.

[qwerty360]

Secretary of State Blinken says revitalized Palestinian Authority should govern Gaza after the war.

Though my understanding is there is some evidence that right wing extremists in Israel had significant involvement in the founding of Hamas partly to avoid the Palestinian Authority/Fatah being a sufficiently functional government that they had to negotiate with it...

https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/ham ... -conflict/

So while this is probably the right option given while Fatah really don't like Israel they seem far more sane (read, accept the idea that they can't kick the Israeli's out, so some sort of compromise is necessary) I suspect it would require support from the Israeli far right Government. The same far right who are alleged (with evidence) to have founded/supported Hamas as an extreme anti-Israel group to provide a threat to justify claims that they need even more personal power etc...

IMHO long term peace probably requires also going after the people who thought these political games were a good idea; Of course I suspect the Israeli's learned to do this from the CIA etc and it wouldn't surprise me if American (and plausibly British) intelligence agencies were involved as well; So there is no way that the people who backed Hamas will be prosecuted because the americans won't allow it...


The timing of the attacks stink in that the current Israeli government had something to gain - distraction from protests over supreme court powers

But Hamas also had stuff to gain - preventing improved diplomatic relations between Israel and Arab neighbours (Saudi Arabia, Egypt, etc) which would have provided a close enough to neutral party to negotiate between Palestinians and Israeli's, which would defeat the entire purpose of Hamas (and I suspect the loss of comfortable, powerful leadership positions within its ranks outside Gaza...) (Saudi's I suspect would love to be able to go 'look over here at the shiny new settlement negotiated by us between Palestine and Israel; Look at how cultured and civilized we are; Don't look over there at allegations of domestic Human rights abuses; clearly noone so dedicated to human rights to have negotiated this could be doing anything wrong')

[Cpt.Jericho]

is that a controversial way of dealing with large armed group of murderers and kidnappers?

Nope, it isn't. I just wanted to know if you initially considered murder a legit approach to the situation (which you first denied and now have proven to be correct). There is no point in talking to you anymore as you openly advocated murder being an option.

[clakclak]

is that a controversial way of dealing with large armed group of murderers and kidnappers?

Nope, it isn't. I just wanted to know if you initially considered murder a legit approach to the situation (which you first denied and now have proven to be correct). There is no point in talking to you anymore as you openly advocated murder being an option.

Given the fact that Fiksal was talking about Hamas members not civilians I find your use of murder in this case a bit misleading. If even Hamas members may not be killed according to you, than I really have to wonder what should be done here? Do you want police to try to arrest all members of Hamas using only pepper spray and batons as to not hurt them to much? While in an ideal world they would all stand for a fair trial I think we can all agree that Hamas will not simply allow its members to be arrested like common criminals.

If they wanted that the would already have given up.

[fiksal]

is that a controversial way of dealing with large armed group of murderers and kidnappers?

Nope, it isn't. I just wanted to know if you initially considered murder a legit approach to the situation (which you first denied and now have proven to be correct). There is no point in talking to you anymore as you openly advocated murder being an option.

I usually take care at making my position both clear and consistent throughout a specific topic in every thread.

Well anyways

[chew-ie]

is that a controversial way of dealing with large armed group of murderers and kidnappers?

Nope, it isn't. I just wanted to know if you initially considered murder a legit approach to the situation (which you first denied and now have proven to be correct). There is no point in talking to you anymore as you openly advocated murder being an option.

I usually take care at making my position both clear and consistent throughout a specific topic in every thread.

Well anyways

Being a German this topic is a real complicated one. But it isn't only for Germans as it shows - the very thin line here makes it so hard. Both you fiksal & Cpt. Jericho strike me as reasonable discussion partners - no need to "break up" on this one. But that's an IMHO.

For me, even back in my schooldays (20+ years ago) it wasn't always clear wether to "support" Israel or the Palestinian people. Across my class- / schoolmates there were supporters for every "faction" - without the people being real extremists (as in: "murdering side X is the way to go". I chose the neutral way back then tbh. And still do somehow. But these days I'd say we have to fight the extremist visions of this world. So I'm pretty much condemning Hamas. The same way as I condemn Russia for attacking Ukraine. Everybody who attacks civilians to make a point is unworthy of any support in my book. But it doesn't stop there - every extremist movement (even in our politics!) have to be overcome or at the very least being told that it is not welcome in our societies..

[clakclak]

Amichai Eliyahu (Israeli heritage minister) needs to loose his job. People like him in positions of power, as small as they may be, will be an incredible danger moving foreward. His comments about all Gazens being combatants and non-civilians were bad enough allready, but now he stepped it up and suggested that dropping a nuclear bomb on the Gaza strip was one of the options to conclude this conflict. He is now suspended from cabinet meetings but he is still a minister.

[fiksal]

indeed that doesn't help

[chew-ie]

How do you notice a person being unfit for political office (or any job involving responsibilites for that matter)? Among other things when said person makes a proposal of using an atomic bomb on a (very close) neighbour.

[fiksal]

How do you notice a person being unfit for political office (or any job involving responsibilites for that matter)? Among other things when said person makes a proposal of using an atomic bomb on a (very close) neighbour.

I see what you did there

[Cpt.Jericho]

Interesting, no one in the "rule based" West cares about refugee camps being bombed by the IDF. Seriously, nothing justifies intentionally bombing refugees. Not even if there was a bunker below it where Adolf Hitler played poker with Bin Laden and Nixon.

Finally, times where I have to be ashamed of my home country have returned.

[clakclak]

Interesting, no one in the "rule based" West cares about refugee camps being bombed by the IDF. [...]

Really? I feel lime the opposite is the case. This entire conflict is getting a lot of traction in the media and at least where I live there are a lot of demonstration from both sides. Every small detail is in the news constantly, despite it being a very limited conflict in scope. Other ongoing conflicts meanwhile barely get any coverage at all. That is not a new phenomenon either. Just ask people what they think was the deadliest conflict after world war 2 and I think unless you hang around with highly interested or educated people, barely anyone will answer the Second Congo War.

[fennix102]

Civilian areas like refugee camps should be off-limits, no question. The harm to innocents is just tragic. War is already harsh, and when it hits the most vulnerable, it's a stark reminder of how much work there is to do in terms of international law and protecting human rights.