The US Billion Dollar Bailout - Failed, Redux: Signed by Bush

[Aro]

Oh oh...
So what now?

[Edit: Title, and now it's here.]

[Tsar_of_Cows]

Now all the poor saps who invested in poor investments have to save their own asses instead of being bailed out by the government.

You know the events of the past 5 years are disturbingly reminiscent of the 'future-history' in Deus Ex... o_o

[silentWitness]

Good.

The money should be used to bail out home owners facing foreclosure. This will filter through the system and bail out the fat pigs at the top... eventually.

Wall St should be left to fend for itself... Main St needs the money!

[exogenesis]

It was defeated by 225 votes to 208, so pretty close then.

I’m confident that we’re going to get there but it’s going to be a little rocky

Oh rly, starting when?

[Dragoongfa]

Good.

The money should be used to bail out home owners facing foreclosure. This will filter through the system and bail out the fat pigs at the top... eventually.

Wall St should be left to fend for itself... Main St needs the money!

The problem is that the big fat ducks have already their arses covered, the investment firms that are about to go down, are mainly funded by mid income peeps that invested their money following promises of "safety" and "profit".

Now most of those investments went into loans for home owners that are currently facing foreclosure but since nobody is buying their houses, there is no money to circulate the system.

The US market is going down, hard, make sure that you have a deposit somewhere deep and safe.

[philip_hughes]

The issue as far as I know was that good executives were hard to find. Slightly off working conditions would have them leaving. In hindsight, they should have let them leave...

(Phil's wife - I have the best husband ever!!!)

Ummmm..... thanks! I suppose it is an off topic forum. For those who are confused, its to do with the downtime thread. With the new recording room, I also cleaned up the entire house. Back to OP.

I think the role of the executive is a little overvalued. The face of the company is the bloke behind the checkout. They actually deal with customers and pull the money in. For them to lose their jobs because some tool wanted to fudge the figures is terrible. Its the US isn't it? Couldn't the employees mount a class action against these people or something?

[Usenko]

Good.

The money should be used to bail out home owners facing foreclosure. This will filter through the system and bail out the fat pigs at the top... eventually.

Wall St should be left to fend for itself... Main St needs the money!

If only it was this simple.

The problem is that you can't let the "fat pigs" face the consequences of their own actions without causing colossal damage to the entire market system.

So why should we care?

Because we're all intricately linked to it. A dollar (or pound, euro, rouble or rupee, whatever) is worth what it is because we agree that it has to - and all this is tied up with the amount of value within the economy of the world.

When banks collapse, it is seldom the big boys who starve. So much as it may seem unfair, it was probably in everyone's best interest for the bailout to proceed.

Well, things shall be rough for everyone over the next few years (fortunately for us living in Australia, our banking system is just a little more securely financed than the rest of the world, meaning that this crisis is likely to have a less severe impact on us).

[eladan]

The issue as far as I know was that good executives were hard to find. Slightly off working conditions would have them leaving. In hindsight, they should have let them leave...

You've got that right.

A bit off topic, but I have followed the SCO saga fairly closely, if anyone here knows of it. Since 2001, the SCO execs have driven the company into the ground through a business model which consists of unsuccessfully trying to extort money from as many people as possible via litigation (sounds familiar...) Their lack of success is illustrated by the fact that they are currently in bankruptcy proceedings. That, however, didn't stop the board voting themselves a bonus (because obviously they were doing so well ) which fortunately the bankruptcy court has to ok - unsurprisingly, it was denied.

I really wish that execs would be made more accountable for their actions. As it stands, they can use the company as a shield to avoid any ramifications of their bad decisions. And when things don't work out, why, they simply move onto a plum position in the next company. If they were actually made accountable, just maybe they might consider their actions more carefully, and we might not have some of the messes we've had recently.

[Mopy]

The money should be used to bail out home owners facing foreclosure.

Probably an unpopular view, but I don't agree with that. Why are the people who overstretched by starting families when they couldn't afford it, buying property that they couldn't afford, getting into debt they couldn't afford, and releasing equity through their properties suddenly entitled to have someone else pay for their mistakes?

Its quite simple for me. If I can't afford it, I don't do it/buy it until I comfortably can. I don't go building some fairytale life on a shoestring and expect someone else to bail me out when things go wrong.

[X2-Eliah]

Harsh, but quite true..

Don't take up numerous credits, loans and what-nots if you can't afford them. If someone says it's the dollar fluctuation, well, who in the right mind sets up a loan he can barely keep up when the dollar is either peaking (and we all know any amount of monetary value never stays fixed) or entering a descent course?

Besides, at least in Latvia we have lots of folks who get a loan/credit to buy that Home-Theater+ HD TV and stuff like that, then they set up another loan in another bank to pay for the first, and so-on, and so-on.. Sure, one person has a limit, but include the family, friends, etc..
Or they tend o get item X for the loan X, then, while they can barely keep it up, they still get item Y with a loan Y, which gets them over their budget..
I am not sure if people do this in the US, but, honestly, do you think that sort of people (who are quite guilty of giving the suppliers the false pretenses that customers are able to buy a lot more than they really can, sending the prices/inflation up) should be bailed out?

[Tsar_of_Cows]

I really wish that execs would be made more accountable for their actions. As it stands, they can use the company as a shield to avoid any ramifications of their bad decisions. And when things don't work out, why, they simply move onto a plum position in the next company. If they were actually made accountable, just maybe they might consider their actions more carefully, and we might not have some of the messes we've had recently.

It's not just that, but even if they do get the boot, they get a multi-million dollar golden parachute.

Need some money for the new yacht in the Bahamas? Just get Fired! You'll get a new job again no trouble!

The whole thing sickens me. Also reminds me of the Devil's Dictionary definition of Corporation, which IIRC was something along the lines of "Corporation n: Business run in such a way as to maximise profit and minimise responsibility"

The money should be used to bail out home owners facing foreclosure.

Probably an unpopular view, but I don't agree with that. Why are the people who overstretched by starting families when they couldn't afford it, buying property that they couldn't afford, getting into debt they couldn't afford, and releasing equity through their properties suddenly entitled to have someone else pay for their mistakes?

Its quite simple for me. If I can't afford it, I don't do it/buy it until I comfortably can. I don't go building some fairytale life on a shoestring and expect someone else to bail me out when things go wrong.

I agree.

The thing which makes everyone s**t themselves about the current crisis is that it's been in the works for the last 20 years, and everyone has just stuck their heads up their arses and prayed it won't happen. Well surprise surprise! When your economy is built entirely on spending and the services industry and everyone is encouraged to spend money that they don't have in order to keep the economy going, you're going to run out of steam eventually, anybody can see that!

The solution isn't going to be to take out even more loans and throw money at the economy either - the solution is to move away from this short sited service-industry economy that's based on spending. If we throw $700 billion at the economy now, it just sets us up for an even bigger crash later on.

[fiksal]

government needs to do something,
but giving a grant[1] of $700 billion dollars seems a bit MUCH.

so, keep thinking, guys.



on a side note, one "good" thing is happening: gas prices went down.




[1] as opposed to a loan, for instance.

[silentWitness]

The money should be used to bail out home owners facing foreclosure.

Probably an unpopular view, but I don't agree with that. Why are the people who overstretched by starting families when they couldn't afford it, buying property that they couldn't afford, getting into debt they couldn't afford, and releasing equity through their properties suddenly entitled to have someone else pay for their mistakes?

Its quite simple for me. If I can't afford it, I don't do it/buy it until I comfortably can. I don't go building some fairytale life on a shoestring and expect someone else to bail me out when things go wrong.

They probably got their mortgage on a low variable interest rate... When they bought their house they could afford to pay the bills... now their repayments have rocketed 300%+ they're facing a crisis they were told they wouldn't have to... after all bankers have been saying the market is sound for years!! "It's just going to go up and up"... And when a so called 'expert' tells you that then you stretch yourself a little to get the better lifestyle, we've all done it at one point or another... I just don't see why people should suffer due to bad advice!

If they must give it to the fat cats then Government should take a controlling stake in all the businesses it gives money to! That or the fat cats in charge should be taken out into times square and publicly whipped and asset stripped for being so greedy and letting this happen!

[Usenko]

THAT I can agree with.

[muppetts]

The money should be used to bail out home owners facing foreclosure.

Probably an unpopular view, but I don't agree with that. Why are the people who overstretched by starting families when they couldn't afford it, buying property that they couldn't afford, getting into debt they couldn't afford, and releasing equity through their properties suddenly entitled to have someone else pay for their mistakes?

Its quite simple for me. If I can't afford it, I don't do it/buy it until I comfortably can. I don't go building some fairytale life on a shoestring and expect someone else to bail me out when things go wrong.

They probably got their mortgage on a low variable interest rate... When they bought their house they could afford to pay the bills... now their repayments have rocketed 300%+ they're facing a crisis they were told they wouldn't have to... after all bankers have been saying the market is sound for years!! "It's just going to go up and up"... And when a so called 'expert' tells you that then you stretch yourself a little to get the better lifestyle, we've all done it at one point or another... I just don't see why people should suffer due to bad advice!

If they must give it to the fat cats then Government should take a controlling stake in all the businesses it gives money to! That or the fat cats in charge should be taken out into times square and publicly whipped and asset stripped for being so greedy and letting this happen!

People should educate themselves better, a morgage is the biggest investment most people ever make, so make sure you have done the research. It is homeowners mistake (that's why it is advice not an order) if you get the wrong morgage. I have fixed interest for 15 years, it costs me more and is very very safe.

Far too much coddling going on.
I agree with above, people have a few kids, get a space van (on monthly payment) and big house and think it is ok because the can just make the payments. Then it goes wrong, no margin of error, so safety net, no savings, your in deep poo.

If you don't have it, don't spend it.

[philip_hughes]

I understand your point of view mopy, and to a certain extent agree, but what bothers me is the disproportion of responsibility.

If a large bank makes terrible decisions and goes down the tubes, then its the little people who had no say in proceedings who get the biggest burdain when their job no longer exists. The people who were actually responsible can still afford their luxury homes because they somehow were rewarded for their incompetence.

Seeing the employees are drastically affected, I see no reason why an executive pay packet is not fair game in legal proceedings once everything goes belly up.

[jannix]

Its quite simple for me. If I can't afford it, I don't do it/buy it until I comfortably can. I don't go building some fairytale life on a shoestring and expect someone else to bail me out when things go wrong.

I agree with above completely. I don't think people who can't manage their income should be bailed out magically by the government using other people's tax money. Just like I feel it is ridiculous to offer free government help to banks and corporations who lend without looking.

The latter can be done, but not as a blank pay check to save the said company. There must be significant repercussions and it should be done in such a way that the government makes back the 'help' given through the very company it just saved.

I think it is a good thing the bail out attempt #1 failed. They need to edit it further and make it clear the government isn't giving free money.

On the positive side, commercial real estate related equities have probably never seen this close to the bottom of the barrel in quite some time. And I'm just being a true opportunistic scavenger and making sure when things do settle down (maybe in a few years) I'd be fairly rewarded.

[Usenko]

Or you could say that you're one of those with money who will be key in helping the market to get back onto its feet.

[The Wolf]

And I just bought some stocks too.
Had I been home watching the market rather than having to set up a proxy bid while I was away at work, I might have avoided buying now, or at least got a better price, but oh well. Like they say, never invest more than you're willing to lose. All sectors dropped as soon as the news was released:
from tsx.com
I'll definitely be following up on the markets to see how things go.

[Protrader]

As an American I know who is responsible for this mess..

It's every single person who said "The poor need houses" "we need to fight this war because..." and "Deficits don't matter"

Ron Paul knew this was coming, for the last 5 years he has been on the floor of congress saying it was coming..

Pleading with someone to do something...

Pleading with us to listen and warning us that its getting closer.

Now that everything RON PAUL said has come to fruition, we are ignoring him yet again and doing exactly opposite of what he says and trying to save a system that should be allowed to die.

And we are doing so at the cost of our children, and our own futures. Not because of the debt but because of the devaluation of the dollar.

Current inflation rates are estimated at almost 30% so that means in 3 years if you haven't doubled what you earned, you will not be able to buy as much. That means if you make 25$ an hour you need to make 50$ an hour in 3 years, and 100$ an hour in six otherwise you will not be able to afford as much as you do now.. I don't know about a lot of you, but I personally am close to the breaking point because my jobs have not doubled in wages, instead they disappeared where I use to earn 25$ now I earn 0$ an hour and the same thing is true for millions of others like me. All because we ignored Ron Paul and followed a system of debt and lies called the federal reserve (which is actually not part of the US government just in case you were wondering)

I hope the rest of the world learns from us and dismantles their central banks before its too late for them as well.