@ Burnit

[Argonaught.]

X2 is now Global....Where's the Scripting Documentation?????

PS: Some form of official answer would be well recieved.

PPS: And answering with "Soon" won't make people happy.

[scritty]

X2 is now Global....Where's the Scripting Documentation?????

PS: Some form of official answer would be well recieved.

PPS: And answering with "Soon" won't make people happy.

Yup, The expected release was January wasn't it ?

I hope it's because there's LOADS more to it than we have seen so far. To be fair the stickied guides in the Modding thread tell you just about everything (if you have a basic understanding of O.O.P - and if you don't have that - then learn that first anyway)

So lets have a new "guesstimate" at least.

Noticed how unfriendly this place has become of late - how rarely the Mods say anything.

Anyway

Clarker

[pjknibbs]

Noticed how unfriendly this place has become of late - how rarely the Mods say anything.

a) What makes you think we know any more about it than you do?
b) Given that the forum only seems willing to actually let me on first thing in the morning and last thing at night my input is necessarily reduced anyway...

[Shadowfax2]

The developers have slaved and worked their collective butts off trying to make their "baby" the best they can. Since the release they have seen positive and negative comments galore. It's probably like introducing your new kid to the family and watching half of them go "oh, how cute" and the other half "oh, how ugly".

Considering the EU release has just happened and there are bugs to hunt and kill as well do you think anything is coming out in the next day or two? Not likely, and I wouldn't want it anyways. Gad, these people should at least have the weekends off.

Rant over.

[Argonaught.]

The developers have slaved and worked their collective butts off trying to make their "baby" the best they can. Since the release they have seen positive and negative comments galore. It's probably like introducing your new kid to the family and watching half of them go "oh, how cute" and the other half "oh, how ugly".

Considering the EU release has just happened and there are bugs to hunt and kill as well do you think anything is coming out in the next day or two? Not likely, and I wouldn't want it anyways. Gad, these people should at least have the weekends off.

Rant over.

I take it your pointing this at me.
FYI I have had nothing but praise for the game...Please show me my negative postings.

Most folk know that BurnIt! is the man putting the Script Documentation together, so thats who I'm asking, I'm not asking the Dev team as a whole and I'm not pressuring the mods, who are only mods of the forum and as such are unpayed.

I'm a longtime X'er and been here for who knows how long....all I asked is where are the script documents...a question, not a rant or a rave. I was expecting the docs to be realeased in conjuction with the EU release....was that wrong of me?

The official documentation is estimated to be complete in January 2004.

Above quote is taken from this thread:
http://www.egosoft.com/x2/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17965

I've waited till feb to ask my question.

I think I've covered most of everything there......if I've missed anything please feel free to inform me.

[The_Abyss]

AFAIK these are still being worked on. And atm, X² is NOT global yet - some Eur countries are still being worked on for localisation.

Some other issues (forum? amongst others) have taken priority over this no doubt, but rest assured, completing this is still high up on the agenda.

Those in the know will keep you updated as and when they can - Trade Mk 3 was 'pre-released' so there is something to start with (albeit not supported).

[Argonaught.]

Thanks for the reply Abyss, much appreciated.

I'm eager to get the docs as I fear touching the Script editor without some hard facts to work from.....I'm also not a programmer so understanding what folk talk about in here is beyond my talents.

[The_Abyss]

I'm eager to get the docs as I fear touching the Script editor without some hard facts to work from.....I'm also not a programmer so understanding what folk talk about in here is beyond my talents.

You're not alone

[esd]

I'm eager to get the docs as I fear touching the Script editor without some hard facts to work from.....I'm also not a programmer so understanding what folk talk about in here is beyond my talents.

You're not alone

Indeed you're not. I am really looking forward to taking the scripting docs to bed for some light reading - then delving into scripting for the first time.
And it's gotta be said, we (the forum members) haven't been hassling Egosoft on this issue - others we have (as a whole). I think this is the first thread about it since BurnIt! said January.

We've been patient, and we were just wondering

[Apoch]

Remeber the definition of "estimated." BurnIt said "estimated January 2004", not "certainly January 2004," nor "not a day later than January 31, 2004." It is barely 8 days into February. Have some patience.

Also, why do people always expect "official" responses to everything? Don't you realize that if the "official" people gave personal responses to even a tenth of all of these questions, they'd have no time to actually get work done? And don't you see that if they answer a tenth, the others will whine even louder that their questions are not being answered? You answer one, and people expect you to answer them all. Answer them all, and you have a full-time job... and nothing gets done. Even worse, if your estimates prove to be wrong for whatever reason, you get assaulted for not being on time.

I've experienced this exact same thing in several software projects over the years, including a few of my own. I still don't understand it.


(Please note I'm not directing this at anyone, or any thread, in particular... just a random observation about how these things tend to turn out.)

[LV]

I've honestly got to say that if there's one person on the entire ego team who deserves nothing but praise it's Burnit.

I wont have a single bad word said about the guy.

Unless you are a lev 6 tester or higher you will have no idea on the size of burnit's workload.


Keep poking him with the proverbial stick by all means but give him as much time as he needs on this one the guy honestly deserves a medal.

Infact I rate the guy so high I even considered allowing him to join the empire ....... need i say more.

And without trying to sound like i'm trying to fob peeps off here the best option on this is if peeps who know the SE offer to help in some way.

I'm waiting just like everyone else

[The_Abyss]

I've honestly got to say that if there's one person on the entire ego team who deserves nothing but praise it's Burnit.

I wont have a single bad word said about the guy.

Unless you are a lev 6 tester or higher you will have no idea on the size of burnit's workload.

BurnIt! eats, drinks, sleeps and breathes X² and this forum.

[The_Rock]

...
Infact I rate the guy so high I even considered allowing him to join the empire ....... need i say more.

Must be some guy then..:)

[scritty]

Good points one and all, but the "'nort" is right. ETA January, ask again middle of February. Can't see a problem with that. If I was told "April" then fine..I'll wait.

Only asking !

Cheers

Clarker

[Ben_Kneel]

Remeber the definition of "estimated." BurnIt said "estimated January 2004", not "certainly January 2004," nor "not a day later than January 31, 2004." It is barely 8 days into February. Have some patience.

Also, why do people always expect "official" responses to everything?

and you have a full-time job... and nothing gets done. Even worse, if your estimates prove to be wrong for whatever reason, you get assaulted for not being on time.

I've experienced this exact same thing in several software projects over the years, including a few of my own. I still don't understand it.

I am a programmer by trade for a professional, non-software selling company (i.e., i write programs to help facilitate the company's internal and external goals which are not to sell software). If i were to tell the executive staff where i work (the people who pay me) "Don't bother me while i'm working, i cannot give you responses to every little concern, and when i give you a date that something will be finished, it might get finished in + or - 3 months from that date", i'd be fired so fast, people's heads on different floors would be spinning.

It is called unprofessional. If you have so much work that one cannot keep general dates like "January 2004" then the person either needs to a.) ask for help, b.) not take so many projects, or c.) provide realistic dates knowing how much work they have to do. Any of the three options i just mentioned are considered highly professional and expected of anyone wishing to do a respectable job. Making dates up and missing them not only doesn't help, it actually hurts things.

First i was told that a major advertised feature was not being released upon purchase of the product due to not having the documentation ready. Then i'm told, "scripting is dangerous (ed. duh!), please wait until the documentation in Jan'04, where it will be supported." Then when they probably realized they were not going to make the Jan release, they put out the "Trade Extension", and stated, "Here's something to play with, BUT IT IS UNSUPPORTED!" In other words what they were saying was, "Here is something official that we refuse to support because it was easier to release this than providing the proper resources to support the person (people) working on the documentation project."

Finally, when people are asking where the promised documentation is after the multiply reinforced date, they are being ridiculed. Another aspect expected in my occupation is not to avoid communication or to tell the customer "go away and wait patiently", but to come up with ways to correct the situation. Pointing fingers/casting blame or making excuses why something is late does not do anyone any good and just spreads negative feelings. HOWEVER, stating a new realistic date, how others might be able to help (you have a lot of mature, responsible, intelligent fans chomping at the bit to help, seems like it'd make sense to let them), or what specifically is going wrong that others might have ideas on how to fix or get around would all be positive movement.

The number of years of experience available at Egosoft's fingertips in the community is mind boggling. Their total resistance to using that experience, knowledge, and fervor is even more mind boggling and disheartening.

X2 was a truly altruistic gaming goal, which i purchased just as fast as they'd let me. I am beginning to work on my own gaming project which has been on my mind for close to a decade and has not be realized by other gaming companies yet, and which i hope to keep the niche spirit alive rather than submitting to the "mass market for mass money" syndrome. However the reason gaming companies IN GENERAL are not respected is because they often do not hold themselves to the same levels of professionalism expected of other programmers/developers. Inconsistent communication, missed release dates with more missing communication, and not taking advantage of all possible resources are just a few examples of this.

I allowed myself to be swayed by the hype, words of Egosoft, and coments of long-time fans thinking they (Egosoft) were different and more professional. It was very naive of me, and as we continue in to February with no further useful information on the documentation, i have relearned my lesson of listening to game developers.

P.S. You'll note how my message partially violates my statement of only offering positive suggestions to move forward, but i've tried on a number of occasions to provide help and have just been ignored everytime. I've tried, but eventually one has to give up, as persistence without the possibility of being able to achieve a goal is a waste of time. I've stopped telling everyone i know about X2 because of the actions observed. Very sad. :( "It'd be a great game, but they tend to ignore their customers when they become incovenient, and they don't properly support their (pseudo?)employees so that they can complete their work on time to meet their stated goals."

[Apoch]

First off, I want to throw in my support for BurnIt. He's been a great asset to this community and deserves a lot more than he gets, whatever it is he's getting


With regards to Ben_Kneel's post... I guess I'll tackle this in order.

I'm a professional programmer. I freelance and do contract work for a variety of different clients, so I know very well the meaning of deadlines and commitment to achieving milestones. However, I also know very, very well that more often than not projects will have milestone slippage and missed deadlines, especially when working with a limited team and limited funding. Yes, one should always try to compensate for one's workload, but, well... the best laid plans of mice, men, and progammers...

Personally I can't recall the date of January 2004 ever being stated as certainly and definitively as you make it sound. I may have just missed it, so if you can provide exact quotes where the date is explicity and certainly specified as January, I'd like to see them. The only references to January which I am aware of were estimates, not deadlines. There's nothing "unprofessional" about not precisely meeting estimates. Even huge companies like Microsoft experience schedule slippage; do you have the gall to label them unprofessional as well?

There seem to be a lot of unfair and unreasonable expectations around here. Egosoft has a very talented and very dedicated team, but they are not omnipotent, nor omniscient. Unforseeable issues will pop up. Unexpected problems and complications will arise. If people always knew enough to compensate for such unforseens, there wouldn't be any more unforseens. Being "professional" is not the same as having a tremendous amount of resources to draw on.

I have lurked in many different communities that grew up around small companies and their products, and sadly, there are always the few (or perhaps the many) who just don't understand what it is like. I'm trying to start a business on the side of my regular work, and it is no small job. I know several people who have started and operated small businesses, a number of whom work in the software industry. I would not call any of them unprofessional, but they have all lagged and slipped and missed now and then. Nobody is perfect; expecting perfection as a criteria to professionalism is absurd - almost as absurd as expecting someone to perfectly meet an estimated date.

Nobody is being ridiculed here. I think a few people in this community need to learn a bit about the reality of software development in a small company before they go whining, but I've been careful not to single anyone out or make any kind of attacks on anyone. I can't speak for the rest of the community, but I just don't see this "ridicule" going on, at least not with regards to deadlines and official feedback.

The number of years of experience available at Egosoft's fingertips in the community is mind boggling. Their total resistance to using that experience, knowledge, and fervor is even more mind boggling and disheartening.

I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Egosoft is the only game developer I've ever come across that actually lets fans directly contribute content to the final game. I've never seen a company in any industry that is more responsive to the wishes of the community and more willing to accept volunteer support and contributions. I am a volunteer contributor; all I had to do was sign a simple NDA and I was given the priviledge of working with an outstanding group of people on a marvelous project. My contribution was quite small, but nobody turned it down. Unless I have totally misunderstood you, I think you're utterly wrong about this point.

You say in your postscript that you have been "ignored" when trying to offer help. What kind of help are you offering? There's already a lot of help being offered, and coordinating it is a huge undertaking. It may simply be that whatever you are trying to offer is not in short supply right now. Also, keep in mind that Egosoft is working through a very intense period of time, what with the recent release of the game in Europe and ongoing translation and update work. Bringing in fresh blood at this stage can be suicidal.


I also don't know what you mean when you say game companies in general aren't respected. In my experience game developers are some of the few idols that the computer world has. Names like id, Raven, Valve, and Squaresoft are virtually holy among gamers. I really have no clue what you are referring to here.

As for professionalism, I'd like to respectfully suggest that you really don't know what you're talking about. I spend a lot of time hanging around game development communities, and I have some personal experience in the game development industry (beyond X²). The demands and stresses on game developers are unparalleled in the software development industry as a whole, and perhaps in any white-collar industry. It takes a rare breed to make games for a living, and very few people are capable of it. Again, if anything, they are some of the most revered names in programming and electronic artistry that I am aware of.

Sure, there is a lot of complaining about missed dates, communication, and all that - but the more levelheaded PC gamers recognize this as a way of life. Even in non-entertainment software development there are problems with poor communication and missed dates. Game development is hardly alone in this, and not at all out of line, especially considering the higher demands involved.

I don't feel unsupported at all as a volunteer. Every time I've had a question it has been answered in a timely manner and with correct, helpful, and constructive advice. I may not know exactly what the Egosoft team eats for breakfast, or even what their plans are for the future of the X-Universe, but I don't need to... and neither does anyone else.

Personally I just don't see these problems you're talking about. I'm not constantly here and keeping up with every little event, so I may well not be privy to whatever has lead you to your current attitude. Regardless, at this time, I can't understand where you are coming from at all.

[Lucrativus]

I am sure that someone will correct me if I am wrong but I don't think Burnit (The Great) actually works for Egosoft.

[Ben_Kneel]

First off, I want to throw in my support for BurnIt. He's been a great asset to this community and deserves a lot more than he gets, whatever it is he's getting ;)

(snip)

Personally I just don't see these problems you're talking about. I'm not constantly here and keeping up with every little event, so I may well not be privy to whatever has lead you to your current attitude. Regardless, at this time, I can't understand where you are coming from at all.

Just my impressions from what i've read over time. The Egosoft and extended team have done very well, i have just been frustrated over some things i perceived to be going on. I certainly do not have the full picture, and i apologize if any my comments were out of line.

[Apoch]

I don't think anything was out of line; it's just that the positive attitudes aren't expressed as often as they could be. It tends to get very depressing after a while, which only compounds the problem.

Certainly things are happening that could be better; but nothing is perfect. Given the expectations that Egosoft is being loaded down with, I think they're doing a wonderfully superb job. Unfortunately too few people really understand the scope of what these guys accomplish every day, and as a result they resent the apparent lack of support from the devs. Anyone who's dealt with BurnIt via PM knows otherwise, but the bulk of the visitors who come in with simple problems don't realize that.

Over the last couple of days I've been thinking a lot about this. It is a common, recurring pattern in every online community I've ever been in, and it seems that only the most veteran Internet junkies are familiar enough with it to avoid contributing to the problem themselves.

Anyways, those musings have been exhaustively covered elsewhere, so I won't derail this one any further.

[BurnIt!]

Hi,

list of apologies ahead:

- sorry for not updating you earlier, it's been said here already but the server trouble did indeed keep me very busy over the last week - but that's only last week so there's more

- the sheer amount of new users hade another side-effect: a LOT more people who need support for the forums (registering, activating accounts, transferring keys, mistyped email adresses lost password/username/both etc.) I spend quite some time (we are talking hours here) answering all those PMs and emails so there is very little left for the script documentation - again I am sorry for that but I hope you can understand.

- now there's my "non-egosoft" life with a job to do which obviously requires most of my time (I'm not complaining, just asking you to keep it in mind)

- a thread with my name in the title and I missed it for almost 2 days - scary - must have been totally blind - sorry again

I could list some more reasons why the documentation is not ready yet but I don't think that's what you are really interested in

so, ETA?
I hesitate to give a definiate date because that's a very dangerous thing as there's so many variables influencing this bit.
Soon has become almost a banned word anyway so I won't use that either.
But I can tell you what I - personally - want: to have it finished already
Well true but that's not the case - so, I want the documentation to be ready for public before my next birthday (which is in February btw) and I'll do my best to achieve this goal (that includes getting help from others to speed this up).

To avoid misunderstanding I would like to say that you should not expect the documentation to be 'perfect'.
It will definetely help reading and understanding existing scripts as well as writing more or less advanced scripts yourself.
Please don't rise your expectations above the doable - it will not make a totally unexperienced user a scripting professional in only two days.