[MOD] Miscellaneous IZ Combat Tweaks

[w.evans]

Compatibility update - Main mod and all supplements should now be compatible with Linux and Mac versions.

Windows users need not re-download.

However, I am unable to verify compatibility since I don't have access to a box running Linux or whatever they're calling the Mac OS at the moment, so feedback on this would be greatly appreciated.

[Nemesis_87]

Just want to say great mod, i still have problems with escorts on my flagship but controlling individual ships into battle works like a charm with them jumping straight into the enemy

[w.evans]

Hey Nemesis_87,

Appreciate the compliment!

Could you please go into the problems you're having with escorts in more detail? Just got past some heavy work, and I'm considering diving back into this in a few weeks.

[Nemesis_87]

Well, I only just got into rebirth seeing I was still hooked on x3, but it just seems like it's just a vanilla issue were ships boost strafe all over the place

[w.evans]

Well, I only just got into rebirth seeing I was still hooked on x3, but it just seems like it's just a vanilla issue were ships boost strafe all over the place

Oh, that's the mod. And is working as intended. Vanilla uses boost only to move between zones.

Idea is that they try to keep moving, and they jump or boost if they're trying to get within range, or are trying to get out of their opponents' firing range.

Do you find that they boost around too much?

[Nemesis_87]

Well sometimes it works but sometimes they have pretty much abandoned the fleet leader. Mind you it still works better than the crawling to battle they use to do hehe

Just curious, do escorts have any sort of target priority when engaging multiple targets?

[w.evans]

Usually they just engage the closest target. And standing orders, if I remember correctly, is to hold fire unless attacked, or unless the squadron leader is ordered to engage -- has an attack or patrol order.

Balors and Sucellus will prefer hostile capships, however. Can't remember if they're coded to completely ignore small ships or just prefer big ships. Was a bit funny watching a Balor launching a 16-missile salvo on a pirate fighter, plus they're most likely going to miss small fighters.

edit: they tend to go haring off when their squadron leader is ordered to engage because I figured that it would make sense to keep the area around the squadron leader clear. Experimented with having them stay close to the squadron leader, but didn't work very well with mixed-range squadrons. (Sucellus with a Taranis and a Balor, for example)

edit 2: might be a good idea to make sure that squadron subordinates at least don't leave their leader's present zone. I'll look into it in a couple of weeks when I have time.

[Nemesis_87]

Cool, I see were you are coming from though, staying in close formation with the flagship works well with heavy capital ships but not with long range glass cannons. Mind you having multiple fleets in a battle were 1 is purely heavy and the other is purely range might work. But again I'm still new to rebirth so still adjusting. Only warships I have used are the heavy capital ships so don't know how the balor works in battle

[w.evans]

MICT Balors (with supplements) are awesome if you're of an age and disposition to have grown up with Macross! Otherwise, might be overkill. They were turned into extremely long ranged (and rather inaccurate) artillery pieces. The vanilla Balors are ok, but didn't find them very exciting.

Yeah, separate heavy and light squadrons could work too, but I haven't really optimized for that since, well, mostly I don't like having to change the way I play in order to play a mod; and since I have no idea how people are going to organize their squadrons, I thought it best to make the AI suit mixed task forces.

(then again, you probably have to change how you play a bit with any mod, so that argument's kinda moot. heh.)

Not a bad idea now that UI modding is in, though, although I'd have to start working on my lua.

[Nemesis_87]

Well I couldn't really say how it would work In game, but in a large battle I would send grouped up heavies In the middle and focus on a target seeing their turrets can attack in all directions hitting multiple targets while long range ships pick off dying targets

Edit: in the meantime im gonna test out some different ships liek the balor ect and see how it goes

Also whats the rules for ships jumping into battle? Seeing once i managed to get my flagship and its escorts to jump at the same time to engage a target and it was the perfect attack, never got it to happen again lol

Edit 2: Hmm i seem to have run into a problem after doing some more testing, I went into battle with my arawn and its 2 escort Taranis to engage 2 fulmekron which had a few fighter escorts, they also have drones. When i command my arwawn to engage the fulmekron my escorts focus on fighters which have scattered around aswell as their drones. So an enemie fleet can just throw out small fast ships and my heavy capitals jump around to engage them and ignore the heavies even putting the fulkmekrons construction drones on a higher priority lol

[w.evans]

5.Jul.2015 - MICT_supp2 updated to v0.07

enhanced target acquisition - see notes for supplement 2 below.
a tiny little bit of optimization.

.......
Enhanced target acquisition:

• Long-ranged ships (Succelus, Balor, I, and Drostan) will prioritize hostile ships within radar range that have the highest dps.
• Short-ranged ships will prioritize hostile ships within radar range according to proximity to their squadron commander.

[w.evans]

@Nemesis_87, Thanks! I appreciate your comments.

Well I couldn't really say how it would work In game, but in a large battle I would send grouped up heavies In the middle and focus on a target seeing their turrets can attack in all directions hitting multiple targets while long range ships pick off dying targets

MICT_supp2_v0.07 should work better. Still not quite what you suggested -- haven't yet decided if specifying squadron roles would work better because I rather like how individual ships make their own decisions depending on changing conditions; but should work better now. Would love to hear how it plays out!

Also whats the rules for ships jumping into battle? Seeing once i managed to get my flagship and its escorts to jump at the same time to engage a target and it was the perfect attack, never got it to happen again lol

Squadron subordinates stay close to their commander unless:

• Their squadron is attacked (vanilla behavior, still has priority),
• Or their squadron commander is ordered to engage -- receives attack, attack all enemies, or patrol command.

If the squadron commander receives an attack or a patrol order,

• Squadron subordinates scan radar for hostile targets,
• If hostile targets are found within radar range, they acquire and engage targets depending on priority (long-range ships prefer high dps ships, short-range ships prefer targets close to their commander)
• If no hostile targets are found, and the squadron is not under-fire, they stay close to their commander until one of the above conditions change.

As to coordinating squadron movements, the main restriction at the moment is that movement orders will not change until preceding movement orders are accomplished. So if, for example, a squadron subordinate has orders to get within 5 km of the squadron commander, the subordinate will plot a coordinate that meets that condition, and will start moving towards that position. If the squadron commander is then given an order to attack, while the subordinate is moving to position, the subordinate will not move to attack until the plotted position is reached.

So, if you want to synchronize your squadron's movements, it's best to wait for them to completely settle down first. For planned engagements against lots of targets, I like to:

• move my whole fleet to a zone next to the zone I plan to engage.
• I then boost to just within the zone that I want to target (important that it's far enough away from any hostiles radar range so that they don't engage your fleet until you're ready).
• Wait for everyone to get in position around the Skunk and stop moving.
• Let loose the dogs of war!

This also opens up some strategies and tactics. For example, I like to have several squadrons comprised of different ships with different roles:

• light harassing squadrons with a heavy ship (a Sucellus or Taranis or something like that) escorted by fast Stromvoks,
• heavier occupation forces comprised of multiple Arawns with fighter escorts
• strike forces with multiple Sucellus and Balors

Tactics for a particular engagement are then executed by deciding which of my squadrons I send when, and against which targets. Keep in mind that vanilla ships usually engage the first target that they see.

Of course, plans are sometimes thrown in disarray by a stray hostile coming to within their engagement range, causing everyone to disperse and going hostile. Fun when that happens, too.

Edit 2: Hmm i seem to have run into a problem after doing some more testing, I went into battle with my arawn and its 2 escort Taranis to engage 2 fulmekron which had a few fighter escorts, they also have drones. When i command my arwawn to engage the fulmekron my escorts focus on fighters which have scattered around aswell as their drones. So an enemie fleet can just throw out small fast ships and my heavy capitals jump around to engage them and ignore the heavies even putting the fulkmekrons construction drones on a higher priority lol

Sorry about that. Should be better with MICT_supp2_v0.07. Also, your squadron commander should not change targets. (Does it?)

edit: meant Stromvoks, not Styrvoks. Always confuse the two.

[XenonSurf]

Hello v.evans,
reading the large amount of changes that you have done in both of your mods for IZ and OOZ combat, I can only raise my 2 thumbs. I think your mods will make XR combat more challenging.

I have read various answers from more experienced players in this thread (I'm not that experienced with XR yet), but still have some really basic questions about both your mods (IZ + OOZ tweaks).

I find fleet commad and CAP combat procedures not optimal in vanilla, and most of all not challenging at all in gameplay aspect.

Some examples in vanilla, that I really don't like and want to get rid of are:
Very slow maneuvres of strong cap ships that eventually cause them not being able to deal with enemy ships and even get destroyed because of their weird behavior.
When a CAP of mine is in serious danger OOZ, most of the time I don't even get any messages, so I won't know and cannot do anything about it.

Does your mod in any way make changes about this? How will both of your mods affect the general combat in zones? Will it give the player more to 'do' ?
Will your current IZ and OOZ mod versions work with v.3.53 ?

Thanks very much to answer, and congrats for your overall mod work

Greetings,
XenonS

[w.evans]

Hey XenonSurf,

... Some examples in vanilla, that I really don't like and want to get rid of are:
Very slow maneuvres of strong cap ships that eventually cause them not being able to deal with enemy ships and even get destroyed because of their weird behavior.

This is most certainly addressed with MICT. Ships jump/move/boost to (and away from) combat, and engage, or try to break engagement, much faster.

When a CAP of mine is in serious danger OOZ, most of the time I don't even get any messages, so I won't know and cannot do anything about it.

Does your mod in any way make changes about this?

There is rather extensive logging information available in MOCT, but it's disabled by default because it generates a LOT of data. I use it when actively testing OOZ combat (which was a while back now), and generates so much data that it's not really all that useful when just playing. You can reactivate them, if you like. They are in the three files in \aiscripts\

fight.attack.object.capital.xml contains logging and notification info for OOZ fights involving capital ships,
fight.attack.object.station.xml, for OOZ fights involving stations,
and fight.attack.object.fighter.xml, for OOZ fights involving fighters.

For example, in fight.attack.object.capital.xml, change these lines:

Code: Select all

	<!--<add sel="//do_if[@value='this.ship.distanceto.{$target} lt ($FiringRange + $target.size/2.0)']">-->

Code: Select all

		<!--<do_if value="(this.ship.owner == faction.player) or ($target.owner == faction.player)">

Code: Select all

	</add>-->

to these:

Code: Select all

	<add sel="//do_if[@value='this.ship.distanceto.{$target} lt ($FiringRange + $target.size/2.0)']">

Code: Select all

		<do_if value="(this.ship.owner == faction.player) or ($target.owner == faction.player)">

Code: Select all

	</add>

That will give you notifications and lots of information in your logbook about OOZ fights involving your ships (whether your ships attack, or are attacked.)

These lines:

Code: Select all

		<!--<do_if value="this.ship.macro.ismacro.{macro.units_size_xl_red_destroyer_macro}">-->
		<!--<do_if value="this.ship.macro.ismacro.{macro.units_size_xl_red_destroyer_macro} or $target.macro.ismacro.{macro.units_size_xl_red_destroyer_macro}">-->
		<!--<do_if value="(this.ship.owner == faction.player) or this.ship.macro.ismacro.{macro.units_size_l_single_attack_ship_macro} or this.ship.macro.ismacro.{macro.units_size_xl_red_destroyer_macro} or (this.ship.units.{unitcategory.attack}.count ge 1) or (this.ship.units.{unitcategory.defence}.count ge 1)">-->
		<!--<do_if value="this.ship.macro.ismacro.{macro.units_size_l_single_attack_ship_macro} or this.ship.macro.ismacro.{macro.units_size_xl_red_destroyer_macro} or $target.macro.ismacro.{macro.units_size_l_single_attack_ship_macro} or $target.macro.ismacro.{macro.units_size_xl_red_destroyer_macro}">-->
		<!--<do_if value="(this.ship.owner == faction.leddaindustrial) or ($target.owner == faction.leddaindustrial)">-->
		<!--<do_if value="(this.ship.owner == faction.player) or ($target.owner == faction.player) or $target.macro.ismacro.{macro.units_size_s_torpedo_bomber_macro}">-->
		<!--<do_if value="this.ship.macro.ismacro.{macro.units_size_xl_xenon_01_macro} or $target.macro.ismacro.{macro.units_size_xl_xenon_01_macro}">-->
		<!--<do_if value="(this.ship.owner == faction.xenon) or ($target.owner == faction.xenon)">-->
		<!--<do_if value="(this.ship.owner == faction.player) or ($target.owner == faction.player)">

control which fights you want to monitor. All fights involving a particular ship type, all fights involving assets owned by Ledda, all player-owned capships, etc.

How will both of your mods affect the general combat in zones?

Sorry, but that's a lot of information to cover in a post. Don't mean to be impudent, but please consult both mods' mod descriptions, and if something is not clear, I'd be happy to answer any specific questions.

Will it give the player more to 'do' ?

I don't know about giving the player more to do. The increased speed of engaging should certainly give the player more control over particular engagements. Also, certain parameters, retreat conditions depending on whether your captain is Argon, Split, or Teladi, for example, give you more control over how ships would tend to behave. Also, squad make-up, with the increased difference between some ship types from the supplements, give you more strategic control. However, micro-managing on a per-ship level isn't in the plans.

Will your current IZ and OOZ mod versions work with v.3.53 ?

Yup. With 3.53 and the 3.60 beta. Should work with windows, linux, and mac versions of X:R too.

Thanks very much to answer, and congrats for your overall mod work

It's fun on my end too, so no trouble. Hope that you have fun with them!

[XenonSurf]

Thanks very much, v.evans.
About Messages from caps, I now understand better why Egosoft has reduced them to the strict minimum. Also due to the large data involved, making a sort of 'queue' system for messages (in order not to miss important ones) would have a negative effect on game performance IMO.

As for my question about the player 'doing' more, that was meant in the positive sense, of course, I hope you didn't missunderstand that I think the player will face a more challenging combat where he has to use all ressources (weapons) in a more careful way to succeed.
The best is that I try out your mods which I will for sure.

Cheers,
XenonS

[w.evans]

Thanks very much, v.evans.
About Messages from caps, I now understand better why Egosoft has reduced them to the strict minimum. Also due to the large data involved, making a sort of 'queue' system for messages (in order not to miss important ones) would have a negative effect on game performance IMO.

Could be reduced if the notification stuff were tied to target acquisition rather than firing. Would still generate a lot of data, though. In any case, that's not in at the moment. I'll think about it.

As for my question about the player 'doing' more, that was meant in the positive sense, of course, I hope you didn't missunderstand that I think the player will face a more challenging combat where he has to use all ressources (weapons) in a more careful way to succeed.

One thing that you'll have to keep an eye on if using both mods with all supplements are your Balors. They're strategic weapons of mass destruction and have to be kept on a short leash, IZ at least. OOZ, where there's no risk of friendly fire, they're safe to be just left unattended.

The best is that I try out your mods which I will for sure.

Enjoy! And would love to hear how it goes! Comments, criticism, suggestions, and just plain old war stories are all most welcome.

[Nemesis_87]

Cool. il give these changes a blast when i get in game thanks

well, my flagship usualy sticks with he same taget seeing i usealy enter battles docked to my arwarn

[helgard]

Very nice mod, started using it just yesterday(after re-recruited all combat ships crew to 4+ stars ). Looks nice when you order bunch of caps to attack one Xenon K, they jump in a circle around that poor K and smashes it in no time.. just poof.. they disappear and reappear around target.

Had also funny, odd situation where one Xenon K was boosting from one corner of station to another, my cap ships needed 6-7 minutes to get to him at shooting range, he was just boosting all aroung and shooting NPC station. Does that mean that your mod works on NPC ships also, or just that that was one bugy boogeyman ? Could not find that in description.

Than you very much.

[w.evans]

Hey helgard,

Had also funny, odd situation where one Xenon K was boosting from one corner of station to another, my cap ships needed 6-7 minutes to get to him at shooting range, he was just boosting all aroung and shooting NPC station. Does that mean that your mod works on NPC ships also, or just that that was one bugy boogeyman ? Could not find that in description.

Yup, MICT applies to all ships that fulfill the crew requirements. If you're also running MOCT_supp2, this increases the stats of all NPCs, and would tend to increase the possibility of the game producing NPC ships running MICT. Not by a whole lot, but you do bump into them from time to time. Discussion of just how much more likely is available here.

And thanks for pointing out that this isn't apparent in the mod description! Updated the OP to make it a bit more prominent.

@Nemesis_87, good to know that the lead ships are not switching targets. Thought that I might have screwed up somewhere. And let me know how it goes!

[w.evans]

12.Jul.2015 - MiscellaneousIZCombatTweaks_v0.12 is up!

MICT ships orient side that can inflict highest amount of damage against a particular target towards the target.
If turrets are damaged on one side such that the ship can inflict more damage from a different side, the ship will change orientation accordingly.
MICT ships face away from target when trying to escape.