3.53 bugs: mining ships designed to fail; call-back marine officer breaks board; etc

[xuancong]

Tons of bugs from X-Rebirth 3.53:
1. Mining ships designed to fail.

According to the plot, you need to assign 1 bulk mining ship and one trade ship to the URV forge. So I bought 1 Onil (bulk & liquid) and one Rahana (both equipped with all types of drones) and assign them to the forge. The quest list shows completed. However, another optional quest appears, bring 5 Ore collectors to Onil. I have searched, there is no such thing called Ore collector drones, they actually refers to scoop collector URVs or surface miners. So Egosoft did not plan the game in the beginning, the same URV is addressed using different names.

The problem comes because the Onil Mineral is an L-size ship, which cannot be equipped with scoop drones or surface mining drones. Yet, the quest asks you to bring 5 ore collector drones to it, which is not possible. And if you don't do that, the ship just won't work. I have tested, for several days, the stupid Onil just flying everywhere but not collecting anything. If I assign a general-purpose ship Lyramekron/Lyranea/Scaldis, it works, they do mine and bring back resources.

It is kind of ridiculous that all L-sized mining ships are designed to fail.

EDIT:
I just realize that although shipyard cannot equip L-sized ships with scoop drones, your stations or other ships can do so using the "transfer wares" command. Another inconsistency bug.


2. After boarding, if I call back my marine officer via pod, then skunk can no longer board even with marines and marine officers. Another game logic design flaw.

After a successful boarding, you can call back your marine officer via pod method: open owned property -> select newly boarded ship -> details -> employees -> select the marine officer -> details -> comm link -> come back on board, then he will fly back to skunk via a pod. After that, skunk will still show your marine number and the marine officer, but the boarding attack strength is missing, and you cannot board any longer (board button greyed out). The boarding system becomes permanently broken. Note that if you dock at the new ship and call back marine officer manually, there is no problem.

This bug is actually realistic, because after a successful boarding, both your marines and marine officer are on the new ship. The pod only bring back the marine officer himself, the marines are still on the newly boarded ship. Of course, you shouldn't be able to board another ship.

But the game design flaw lies in why skunk still shows its marine numbers and marines officer on board. Then why cannot it board??? And how to bring the marines back onto skunk, or the boarding system be permanently broken?

From the player perspective, what is the point of keeping the marines and marine officer on the new ship and the player needs to manually call them back every time or should they just return immediately to skunk to save the logic design trouble? Is there any scenario in which the player needs to temporarily keep marine officer on the new ship without calling them back to skunk?

EDIT:
I just realize that you can make marine officer to work by going into skunk crew and talking to the marine officer to "work on this ship". Why need this extraneous step?
A better design would be that after a successful boarding, the boarding crew including the marines and marine officer will return to skunk via the same pod, either automatically or manually through a menu item. If any pod gets damaged, then the crew in the pod (either the marine officer, or one of the marines) will be lost, e.g., during an ongoing battle. That would be more realistic.


3. construction ships with an architect on board cannot stop current task, cannot replace captain, what the hell game logic design?

One of the fundamental design flaws of XR is the lack of systematic and consistent game logic. Basic actions such as calling back crew members and replacing crew members should always be allowed for everyone in every case. If you want to allow it in some cases and disallow it in some other cases, you create troubles for your own. And you will always break the game because you can never eliminate careless mistakes. So the right solution and the most important thing is to make the game logic design tolerant of careless programming flaws while still making sense w.r.t the real-life scenario.


Below are my suggestions:
4. Skunk can only hold up to 5 crew members, so why not allow the player to move some employees to another ship, i.e. in addition to "work here", add "move to here".

5. Every crew members can be called via comm link, "come back on board", except the captain. Why make this so special? (same issue as in Point 3) Should allow calling back any person, it's just that after calling back the captain, the ship cannot be comm-link contacted, like a newly boarded ship. Btw, sometimes you do want to sell your ship without selling away its 5-star captain. And the poor game logic design forces you the trouble to put in a cheap captain to take out the 5-star captain.

EDIT:
I just realize that the captain can be called back, just in a different menu from calling back other crews. This makes the menu system very confusing to players.

6. If a captain is doing something, he cannot be replaced. Another example of ad-hoc game logic design which is very bad. In real life, if an employee working on some task is to be replaced, then the new employee can just continue working on the same task. So why the new captain cannot continue flying/refueling/trading? However, if you call the captain on board, then the tasks will be suspended until you put in a captain.

7. If skunk already has an engineer, hiring another engineer by selecting "work on skunk" will fire the current engineer on skunk without any prompt. But if you select the other option, "work somewhere else", the new engineer will actually come to skunk, which is very confusing and misleading. Very bad game logic design. A smarter idea would be to allow multiple engineers to work on the same ship, including capital ships. In real life, it doesn't make sense that if you have multiple engineers on one ship, strictly only one is working, and the rest are not helping out at all.

8. It would be more convenient to allow moving employee to your other ship in the same zone. This is useful, for example, I am now in Omicron Lyrae, I hired a specialist and want him to work on one of my stations in Albion. It would be much easier to put him in one of my trade ship and ask the trade ship to fly to Albion to deliver the employee, so that I do not need to fly skunk to Albion myself.

9. Allow all operations during game pause. If there is an emergency, just pause the game and do whatever things you want, take whatever time you need. But currently, if you try doing things after pausing the game, you will realize that some you can do, some cannot. Especially the display of maps and menu popup animation which take game time. If the game was designed to allow players to issue commands during game pause, then why menu popup and map display fail while other operations can succeed???

[kelmenwong]

"but the boarding attack strength is missing"

talk to the marine officer to ask him work on skunk, it will fix it

i do use mod, maybe this fix by "human resource", so not sure whether u need the mod or not

[xuancong]

talk to the marine officer to ask him work on skunk, it will fix it

It works. Thanks!

But that also reveals something inconsistent, unrealistic and cumbersome:
1. why if I dock and talk to the marine officer to "come back on board", he will come back to skunk and start to work, but if I comm-link call him to "come back on board", he will come back to skunk without starting to work?? Another inconsistent game logic design.

2. As I mentioned previously, in real life scenario, after I comm-link call back the marine officer, the marines are still on the docked ship, they did not come back along with the marine officer, because the returning pod can only transport 1 person. Yet, I can still dock another ship.

3. Personally, I don't think this design, which require the player to dock on the newly-boarded ship and manually call back marine officer, is useful. After a successful docking, the game should report boarding crews back onto skunk, and automatically bring all the marines and the marine officer back to skunk. That will make things easier and more consistent. It is very rare that the player needs to leave the marine officer on the ship after a boarding.

[XenonSurf]

4. Skunk can only hold up to 5 crew members, so why not allow the player to move some employees to another ship, i.e. in addition to "work here", add "move to here".

5. Every crew members can be called via comm link, "come back on board", except the captain. Why make this so special?

There is a MoreCrew mod you can use, but yes: this mod should made it in the vanilla game, the Skunk is supposed to be a bigger ship and this limit is cumbersome.

Captains:
Every time you sell a CAP you also have to sell the captain with it, BUT: you can change the captains, so you see the sequence that one will come and one will go. When I sell, I put a captain with 1-2 stars in the CAP and take the better one so I don't have to redo his training.

Will have to check the MO bug with the boarding, I never saw this one, although I have analyzed a lot the boarding...that's a very serious bug destroying your savegame (greyed out boarding means you can throw save away).

XenonS

[xuancong]

Captains:
Every time you sell a CAP you also have to sell the captain with it, BUT: you can change the captains, so you see the sequence that one will come and one will go. When I sell, I put a captain with 1-2 stars in the CAP and take the better one so I don't have to redo his training.

Sorry, I just realize that captains can be called back to skunk, just via a different menu (before issuing "comm-link", scroll down until the 3rd button becomes "come back on board") even you do not know. That's why I say the menu system is very inconsistent and confusing.

Will have to check the MO bug with the boarding, I never saw this one, although I have analyzed a lot the boarding...that's a very serious bug destroying your savegame (greyed out boarding means you can throw save away).

As mentioned in a previous reply, the marine officer can continue to work by talking to him and select "work on this ship". An extraneous step which shows inconsistency in the game logic design. Why is there a difference between calling back the marine officer via talking and via pod???

[Sparky Sparkycorp]

Sorry, I just realize that captains can be called back to skunk, just via a different menu (before issuing "comm-link", scroll down until the 3rd button becomes "come back on board") even you do not know. That's why I say the menu system is very inconsistent and confusing.

There are motorways between cities but I have to drive a small road from my house So inconsistent!

Just because something seems inconsistent, doesn't mean it is bad. Historically, Captains could be recalled via the comm menu and it was a pain in the ass because it was easy to press wring button in a rush/under pressure. Then all of a sudden you go from having a capable ship to one that can't receive orders until the captain is sent back and in combat, that is more that frustrating.

The issue isn't so significant for other crew because it is only the captain that is hailed. So Egosoft presumably left their recall option in for simplicity and/or our convenience.

As for "Ore collectors" vs. "surface miners", well there is no such thing as a "Onil (bulk & liquid)" either. Presumably you bought an "Onil Mineral (Bulk and Fuel)"? Are you able to transfer drones from another ship?

Have you used any mods or save game edits at any time in the save?

[Gligli]

I'm not very involve into boarding, to not say not at all, but I wonder if letting the boarding crew on place will increase boarding defence (only the crew not the officer)? I was assuming so, but have no way to verify this easily...

[xuancong]

Just because something seems inconsistent, doesn't mean it is bad. Historically, Captains could be recalled via the comm menu and it was a pain in the ass because it was easy to press wring button in a rush/under pressure. Then all of a sudden you go from having a capable ship to one that can't receive orders until the captain is sent back and in combat, that is more that frustrating.

The problem you address is actually very correct. However, it is not the only way to prevent mis-pressing just by making the menu system self-inconsistent. There are many other better ways to do this. One simple but poor example is to add a confirmation step. The best solution is actually to allow menu operation during game pause. If there is an emergency, just pause the game and do whatever things you want, take whatever time you need. But currently, if you try doing things after pausing the game, you will realize that some you can do, some cannot. Especially the display of maps and menu popup animation which takes game time. You see? Another inconsistent game logic design. If the game was designed to allow players to issue command during game pause, then why menu popup and map display fail???
That is why as I said, if you solve "a problem caused by a design inconsistency" by introducing more inconsistencies, you will eventually end up with full of inconsistencies which eventually breaks down your program.

As for "Ore collectors" vs. "surface miners", well there is no such thing as a "Onil (bulk & liquid)" either. Presumably you bought an "Onil Mineral (Bulk and Fuel)"? Are you able to transfer drones from another ship?

I am addressing this issue: how do you complete the mission "acquire 5 ore collectors for Onil Mineral (Bulk and Fuel)"? And what are the ore collectors? Are they scoop collector drones? Does the game provide any hint so that novice players can figure it out?

Have you used any mods or save game edits at any time in the save?

Nope. I prefer honest playing. The various mods do provide easier ways in many perspectives, but if you just want smooth playing, why not just edit the xml, set your credit to 1 trillion and change all PMC ships and stations to yours?[/b]

[Gligli]

As for "Ore collectors" vs. "surface miners", well there is no such thing as a "Onil (bulk & liquid)" either. Presumably you bought an "Onil Mineral (Bulk and Fuel)"? Are you able to transfer drones from another ship?

I am addressing this issue: how do you complete the mission "acquire 5 ore collectors for Onil Mineral (Bulk and Fuel)"? And what are the ore collectors? Are they scoop collector drones? Does the game provide any hint so that novice players can figure it out?

I shall admit that, till I found them I was tricked...
Yes they are. But if I remember well the plot don't look if you take your drones accordingly (bulk or liquid)
Two way to achieve:
-Dock him on a yard and comm the builder to modify your ship (supply drones)
-Or transfer them directly from an another ship (not your skunk)

Bear in mind that in early game, drone could be hard to find...

Have you used any mods or save game edits at any time in the save?

Nope. I prefer honest playing. The various mods do provide easier ways in many perspectives, but if you just want smooth playing, why not just edit the xml, set your credit to 1 trillion and change all PMC ships and stations to yours?[/b]

That will not be that easy to do... Because of external neighbourhood or something... But the question was more to identify if your save-game could be moded or broken.

[xuancong]

Two way to achieve:
-Dock him on a yard and comm the builder to modify your ship (supply drones)
-Or transfer them directly from an another ship (not your skunk)

That is exactly where it fails because Onil Mineral is a L-sized ship, and shipyard cannot equip scoop drones onto L-sized ships. Then, you start to try Option 2, "transfer wares" from another ship. And you will soon realize that you do be able to equip scoop drones on an L-size mining ship by using the "transfer wares (equip)" command. But then, the quest is still there, "get 5x ore collectors for Onil Mineral". Just try it yourself and you will realize how broken the game logic is.

That will not be that easy to do... Because of external neighbourhood or something... But the question was more to identify if your save-game could be moded or broken.

My save file is intact. I did not use any modding or XML edit.

[XenonSurf]

Ships and the crew:
Is it possible to sell a CAP without *any* crew in it in 3.53 ? I doubt.
I know that technically it's possible to recall all your crew, the CAP is then just floating unclaimed in space, but if you go to the ship's dealer it's as if you didn't have any ship: you won't be able to sell or repair it, no dialog will pop-up for this CAP. (I tried this only once time ago, and IIRC it was impossible).
That aslo happens with smaller ships without pilots, you have to send in a pilot first to sell the ship and you cannot keep that pilot.

XenonS

[Sparky Sparkycorp]

As for "Ore collectors" vs. "surface miners", well there is no such thing as a "Onil (bulk & liquid)" either. Presumably you bought an "Onil Mineral (Bulk and Fuel)"? Are you able to transfer drones from another ship?

I am addressing this issue: how do you complete the mission "acquire 5 ore collectors for Onil Mineral (Bulk and Fuel)"? And what are the ore collectors? Are they scoop collector drones? Does the game provide any hint so that novice players can figure it out?

My point was that Egosoft are only human and like yourself, can make descriptive errors. They recently asked for help with finding text-based errors in the following thread. If you post something about this there, perhaps they will be able to consider it for a future beta.

http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=380428

You could post a bug-report in the beta with an uploaded save game and outlined reproduction steps for bugs you may have found (e.g. if DHA shipyard has available surface collectors and won't equipt them to an L miner). Posting them here, within a large amount of General Forum-esque discussion of what you like and don't like about a currant game/interface design runs the risk of them getting lost.

Nope. I prefer honest playing. The various mods do provide easier ways in many perspectives, but if you just want smooth playing, why not just edit the xml, set your credit to 1 trillion and change all PMC ships and stations to yours?

I think it is a mistake to equate mention of Rebirth mods and save-game edits to cheating, and it is not possible to answer your question without knowing what "smooth playing" means to you. However, Gligli's interpretation of my question was 100% correct and such a discussion would be off-topic.

[Gligli]

I'll just add 2 little precisions:

-"Difficult to find in the beginning" that means that shipyards don't have forcedly any stocks in matter of drones (or whatever else)... leading to impossibility to buy some though.
Maybe they could make something for this 'forcedly' ... As in a scripted plot... Like when we change weapons for the first time.

-Non-moded or broken saves, its only for purpose of dev to track bugs easily.

[xuancong]

I'll just add 2 little precisions:

-"Difficult to find in the beginning" that means that shipyards don't have forcedly any stocks in matter of drones (or whatever else)... leading to impossibility to buy some though.
Maybe they could make something for this 'forcedly' ... As in a scripted plot... Like when we change weapons for the first time.

-Non-moded or broken saves, its only for purpose of dev to track bugs easily.

I'm a bit confused. I think the shipyard does have scoop drones, if I speak to XL-sized ship builder, when equipping drones, scoop drones do appear and its number is non-zero. But if I speak to L-sized ship builder, when equipping drones, there is only cargo-lifter, construction and various fighter drones, no scoop drones. It is a menu item bug. If a type of drone is equippable, even when the shipyard does not have at the moment, it should display 0, instead of no row entry at all.

[Gligli]

As it reminds me my own experience, that make me thinks that it's probably as same as new stations: Since it haven't see any yet, the field still blank... For new player its very confusing, I agree.
At any time if you have scanned enough the station and place a commercial pnj inside, you can check the available goods in, by viewing its details (like other stations)

We still have to know which shipyard it is to replicate the bug.

[xuancong]

As it reminds me my own experience, that make me thinks that it's probably as same as new stations: Since it haven't see any yet, the field still blank... For new player its very confusing, I agree.
At any time if you have scanned enough the station and place a commercial pnj inside, you can check the available goods in, by viewing its details (like other stations)

We still have to know which shipyard it is to replicate the bug.

For me, it applies to all shipyards.
Do you mean that you can equip scoop drones onto your L-size mining ships?

You can download my save file at:
http://sites.google.com/site/xuancong84 ... ave.xml.xz
I have just completed the campaign, but before the campaign finishes, it is still the same.

[Gligli]

I was assuming it...
As version are climbing up fast, we can be sure of nothing
I'll verify this. In my reminds, I could.

[Sparky Sparkycorp]

For me, it applies to all shipyards.
Do you mean that you can equip scoop drones onto your L-size mining ships?.

In my currant campaign game in the beta (no ship dealer info in change log) I don't have access to OL yet so I have access to two shipyards selling L ships:

HoA shipyard:
Having scanned most of the station, I can see it has both mining drones in stock and when I com L ship dealers, they offer both mining drones when I purchase mining ships.

DV:
Having scanned some of the station, It looks like it has no no mining drones in stock and when I com L ship dealers, they naturally do not offer mining drones when I purchase L mining ships. There are no friendly stations selling drones at the moment so I cannot quickly test after stocking the station (DV shipyard has buy orders for both drones).

Conclusion:
Whilst it is possible that the DV shipyard may not work if it had drones (cannot test at the moment), the OL shipyard is working fine with L miners. Conclusion being that either your stations have no available drones, there was an unlisted fix in the beta but somehow noone noticed this problem in 5.53 all this time until now, or something is broken in your game.

Suggestions: Double check whether those stations have mining drones and/or verify the integrity of our game install within steam.

[Gligli]

Thank you.

I tested AL this side...(old 3.53 save on 3.60)
Equipping or buying bulk-miners with accorded drones is ok
I don't own a liquid scooper but I could buy one.
(I although test with commercial ships, everything is ok)
I couldn't buy or equip XL commercial ships because of already used cradle.
I didn't jump to DV, because in my game, its useless; I only got the S shipyard(fighters class)

Though, it seems that you shall find those drones (if not already done) in the production site directly... and with a supplying ship, not directly with the minor (nor your skunk)

PS: this situation is very messy... I reported, few month ago, this problem in French forum, not sure that this had make his way uphill
PPS: At that level, you shall consider drones in their "Box" state as a container-good ... form the manufacturer to final delivery... where the using state(transfer) is "Out of the box".
You have probably already see the difference appear on your trade list too

[Grassturtle]

I am going to provide you with a little bit of useful information ...


To: Original Poster

The reason the Surface miner is not called Ore collector is not because of an error ... it is not called an Ore Collector because it mines the surface of several different types of asteroid (Ice, Ore, ect.).

Next, you can not put a scoop collector on a bulk freighter because a bulk class vehicle does not carry gas or liquid state freight.

Hope this helps ...