"X2: The Threat" - Has Elite found it's match? [LO

Mechan · Post by **Mechan** » Tue, 16. Dec 03, 01:18

This is a personal review of the game, with a poll annexed.

Test System:
Toshiba Satellite
P4m 2.4Ghz
Geforce FX Go5600
1 GB RAM

INTRODUCTION:

Having always been a fan of the ELITE series of games, I was greatly excited when I heard that a game of similar genre was to be released. The freedom I experienced in ELITE: Frontier and Frontier: First Encounters remained unmatched in my gaming history.

So, after installing I start the game: an animated sequence introduces us to the game's world. The animations themselves are decently done, though Unreal2 and similar games have definitely spoiled me in what I expect (graphics-wise) from today's games. The graphics engine itself doesn't seem top-notch, yet it doesn't really matter much to me - I want to see if I can be really free to do whatever I want to, like in the aforementioned games.

So off we go with a new scout and a few credits. The mission structure is well done, guiding you through different aspects of the interface a little at a time.

I was, however, very disappointed at the flight model. One of things ELITE was revolutionary in, was that spaceships actually flew like spaceships, not like atmospheric fighter aircraft. In X2, we fly (more or less, depending on ship class) "cumbersome fighter aircrafts" that also have a proper max speed. Max speed in space!? I used to think the only max speed in space (where, remember, there is no atmosphere to slow you down) is the speed of light. Yet in X2 fighters go fast, transports go slow (*cough* freelancer *cough*).

This brings me into another important observation: gravity. Fly near a star, fly near a planet, and you won't even notice the difference. Oh, and planets... no landing on planets, nor entering the atmosphere to watch sunrise over the ocean in your shiny imperial courier.

Technically, this has the definite smell of the "rushed" game. The interface is cumbersome, with no mouse support and lacking basic functions such as the ability to remap keys or adjucts mouse sensitivity.

Plus, in the later stages of the game, a nasty bug comes up that renders save games over 50 or so MBs very prone to corruption. Hopefully a patch is due soon to correct this major design flaw.

X2 vs FRONTIER: FIRST ENCOUNTERS COMPARISON OF FEATURES

+graphics
+capital ships
+factory building

= Missions; F:FE has less, but more involving (and the hand scripted ones are hard to discover!)
= Ships; I prefer the F:FE ones, but it's really a matter of taste

-ridiculous flight model for a "realistic" space sim
-no gravity
-no planets
-interface (Mouse, anyone?)
-very bad controls (CANNOT BE REMAPPED!!!)
-mouse control is useless (CANNOT ADJUST SENSITIVITY!!!)
-the galaxy (fixed jump gates and number of systems)
-bugs (game keeps crashing after save game size reaches 50 or so MB)

Conclusion:

The seat remains empty. Frontier: First Encounters is still awaiting a worthy heir.

- Mechan

/me takes a load of luxury goods in Sol into his Panther Clipper and leaves

Sir Crashalot · Post by **Sir Crashalot** » Tue, 16. Dec 03, 01:33

X is a game, not a space sim...

I didn`t like the Newtonian physics in Frontier, it detracted from the combat I liked so much in the first Elite. You line up with a distant dot and fly towards it shooting then either swerve or get rammed... thats about it.. I never played the second Frontier so cannot comment much on that.

If Ego used the Newtonian flight model in X space, people would be crashing into things every few seconds (if they don`t already)

Eagle · Post by **Eagle** » Tue, 16. Dec 03, 01:42

Sir Crashalot wrote:X is a game, not a space sim...

According to the US cover, it's a space sim...

Sir Crashalot · Post by **Sir Crashalot** » Tue, 16. Dec 03, 01:47

Mehrunes · Post by **Mehrunes** » Tue, 16. Dec 03, 02:11

I think this one never played the original version of Frontier, or just has selective memory when it comes to bugs. And X2 was never billed as a "realistic" space sim.

Mechan · Post by **Mechan** » Tue, 16. Dec 03, 02:15

"Frontier: Elite II" had a nasty bug with the cockpit backgrounds that crashed the game when you bought a new ship. It also had a trivial bug that allowed you to sell ships with a passenger on board, without the sell going through, but with the cash coming in.

Both issues were fixed, and do not appear in "Frontier: First Encounters"

Mehrunes · Post by **Mehrunes** » Tue, 16. Dec 03, 02:18

Irrelevant if you're including bugs in the initial release of X2 before they have a chance to patch them.

Post by **CBJ** » Tue, 16. Dec 03, 02:24

The comparison is an interesting one, but the title is slightly misleading. A lot of people refer to Frontier and FFE as "Elite", but those of us who are really ancient remember the original Elite (no Frontier in the name at all). That very first Elite had a physics model almost indistinguishable from that of the X series games; it also had no gravity, no planet landings and no mouse cursor to be seen anywhere.

As someone who skipped straight from that original Elite to X-BTF the flight model is intuitive (ridiculous?), the lack of planet landings or gravity is irrelevant (it is a space sim), the interface and controls are fine (remapping, why? sensitivity, OK, I'll agree it is a bit twitchy at the moment). The galaxy is smaller, yes, but then it is not seed-generated like the ones in the original Elite, it is "designed" which gives it a better "feel".

I have to say I feel the bug issue is a bit of a red herring. The original Elite was almost bug-less if I remember rightly, but from what I've heard FFE most certainly wasn't. This is also a temporary issue, assuming Egosoft continue with the level of post-release support that X-BTF and X-T had.

For me, the X series is the natural successor to the original Elite. In many ways, graphically to give an obvious example, it has far surpassed it, but Elite will always have the advantage of being first. The question of which is "better" can't be answered; X² is better now, Elite was better then.

Just my opinion, of course.

Sir Crashalot · Post by **Sir Crashalot** » Tue, 16. Dec 03, 02:51

The original Elite on the BBC B was crammed into 32k of memory... there just wasn`t any room left to add bugs.

SnowGhost · Post by **SnowGhost** » Tue, 16. Dec 03, 03:46

Sir Crashalot wrote:The original Elite on the BBC B was crammed into 32k of memory... there just wasn`t any room left to add bugs.

Actually I found a bug in the Master version. 1 whole bug. If you deleted a commander, and then went and played with some other commander, you could not save the current game.

Of course, the Master128 had 128k RAM, so it could fit in a bug or two.

Bazza · Post by **Bazza** » Tue, 16. Dec 03, 04:01

for me, nothing will capture that first feeling of playing ELITE... no matter how good it is

VladDracul99 · Post by **VladDracul99** » Tue, 16. Dec 03, 07:06

I remember logging piles of hours in the original Elite on the late great C64!! Oh yes, those wonderful vector graphics and the &*&%#$@%$ docking before the docking computer was installed. The original 8 bit Elite was spartan, but, like a good novel, it got its hooks into you.

Then came the Amiga.... oh yes, the computer that kicked IBM's ass in everydepartment except marketing. Frontier came out... and BAM, you could land on planets!! And days would pass... sunrises, sunsets, factories belching out fire. It was wonderful and I loved every minute of it... and I really wish I could play Frontier on this shiny new PC, but, alas, I have found no way to do so. (I HAVE the Frontier Elite II CD for PC)

Frontier: First Encounters, dear God... WHY???? THAT game had SO much potential. Graphically it was parsecs ahead of Frontier with cool looking landscape modelling on the planets, etc., but the BUGS! I recall a conversation with a GameTek employee who bemoaned the fact that FFE was rushed out too early. He even sent me a new CD without proof of purchase just because they were deluged with complaints. I read somewhere on these boards that there IS a patch that fixes a lot of the bugs in FFE AND allows a Win32 system to run it. I would love to find that patch!! (HINT HINT lol)

Then came X:BTF. Call me a fanboy but really ladies and gentlemen or Bruce's and Sheila's - the X series is the closest thing to Elite since..... ELITE!!

In fact, the waiting for this patch has caused me to rediscover X:BTF and X-tension, and frankly I am having a blast!! As I DID say in another post in the tech forum, I believe X2 was released 4-6 months too early... but I have faith in Egosoft based on the quality of their games going back to the Amiga days with Ugh.

WHEN X2 is patched, I believe that it will never dethrone Frontier: Elite II, but it WILL share the throne!!

In the meantime.... back to the original X games.... and Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic

Stone-D · Post by **Stone-D** » Tue, 16. Dec 03, 07:07

The problem is(1), the vast majority of gamers who are into space sims view any form of trading in any given space sim game as a secondary feature that extends longevity.

Meet Joe. Joe is an avid space sim head.

Joe goes into a gaming shop and heads to the 'new release' section. There, lo and behold, he eyeballs something he did not see the day before.

A box, whose cover art depicts a scene that could be mistaken for a sci-fi movie poster from the late seventies. A box whose title reads "X2 : The Threat". Menacing... exciting. As Joe's eyes scan the box text his brain goes into overdrive as he sees the words 'Space' and 'Sim' adjacent to one another. He gurgles, grabs the box then lurches to the pay counter while grubbing around in his inside pocket for his dad's Platinum Card.

From the point of view of the majority space sim gamer, X sucks ass. From the point of view of the majority space sim gamer, after a day of playing, it is evident he had been duped.

If the game had been called "X-Corporation" and the cover art had, instead of some guy and a skimpily clad chick, a guy in a futuristic looking suit with a chick lawyer behind him, then things would be better.

Remember, there's been little to no advertising (mag reviews, etc) about this game that I am aware of. Egosoft is pretty much unknown in the regions X2 was released in. Joe had no clue that X2 was, in fact, a contrived(2) broken-economy sim based in space.

Now that I've laid that out, lets compare the two. Both were advertised as space sims, with 'a huge universe'. LOL.

X doesn't have a universe. X features a dark, zero-G anarchistic shopping mall in which you must crawl from gallery to gallery. You may get mugged at a gallery entrance. You can mug some guy on his way to the carpark and get the burger he just bought. Hell, if you're good you can steal his suit. Then sell it to the used-suit shop in the next gallery. Oh, but be careful of the gangs - the Khaak are really nasty, but watch out for Xenon too. If you run across any pirate stations, aka stalls selling pirated games, feel free to take them out along with their punters.

Frontier, a game that fit on a FLOPPY DISK, did have a universe. If you're in a decent ship and you're a good pilot, you could go to the galactic core... and come back.

For those people who can't get the hang of neutonian flight, TAKE YOUR FINGER OFF THE ACCELERATE BUTTON. I did that a few times myself by accident - I was half way across the solar system before I could slingshot around jupiter and head back. Neutonian flight is easy. Those who yearn for B5 game and don't like neutonian flight had better learn to like it quick, if such a game were to appear you'd hate it.

As for F:FE, the only thing that annoyed me about it was the fact that Earth was brown (aka radioactive wasteland).

(1) Well, not really a problem I suppose.
(2) Solar power plants? Right. Sure.

Nihilistic Automaton · Post by **Nihilistic Automaton** » Tue, 16. Dec 03, 08:12

Alot of the people who complain about combat in Frontier and F:FE never learned the best way to do it. First of all, the mouse was the best control method for that game, as it gave analogue precision at turning and aiming. Secondly, turn your engines off! Use manual thrust (Return and Right Shift) to adjust your position with regards to your enemy. The dogfights were great fun, once you figured it out.

Hokalus · Post by **Hokalus** » Tue, 16. Dec 03, 10:48

VladDracul99 - the Win 32 executable for FFE can be found here http://www.jaj22.demon.co.uk/download.html#Download

If anyone else wants a bit of nostalga then they can download FFE Shareware here http://www.eliteclub.co.uk/download

giskard · Post by **giskard** » Tue, 16. Dec 03, 11:32

Comparing X2 to the bugfest that was Elite 2 is a little strange. The elite series was also put to rest when X beyond the frontier first appeared so in my mind X2 doesnt have to beat Elite because XBTF already did that.

Remember Elite was a very simple game compared to X, looking back on it with fond memories will not change that,

Giskard

giskard · Post by **giskard** » Tue, 16. Dec 03, 11:35

Eagle wrote:
Sir Crashalot wrote:X is a game, not a space sim...
According to the US cover, it's a space sim...

BTw Eagle, according the US cover a P3 800mhz CPU is good enough to run this game too

I wouldn't believe everything you see on a cover but if they added the word space trade sim id agree with that totally.

Giskart

Cougaris · Post by **Cougaris** » Tue, 16. Dec 03, 11:48

Ah, Frontier: Elite.

I remember saving up the 300,000 credits or so needed for an Imperial Courier, installing atmospheric shielding and then spending hours mastering re-entry and landing. Or landing on some uncharted planetoid and unloading a mining station to mine it's surface. Or flying low over the valleys of Mars and Olympus Mons and then visiting the Jovian court. Few games have ever been as rewarding as Frontier. Sure, it had it's bugs, but nothing massively demoralising (providing you saved your game often). As a programmer myself, I cannot help but be in awe of this game, written in 65,000 lines of assembly with a newtonian flight model(!!) and still as playable now as it was then. Classic.

What a brilliant game. I'm afraid it will be a long time before we see your likes again...

Not that X2 isn't good, it's just no Frontier.

Mispunt · Post by **Mispunt** » Tue, 16. Dec 03, 11:51

Stone D: I enjoyed your comparison of X2 universe with a big interplanatary shopping mall (indeed not intergalactic, see Elite or Eve for that)

I'm fairly new to the X games, I never really got into X and X-tension, but some reason I find X2 very promising. I guess, however, it could go any way as I've only had one day of getting to grips with it.
What I like about X2 so far is the "feel" and attention to detail, something I think surpasses Elite's (detail wise), hopefully this can hold my attention a little longer than any of the other games did.
However the crucial bit for any space sim would have to be combat for me, adding physics to the mix would (for me) make combat a more fluid and tactical affair (hence I like flight sims), I think I-war 1 and 2 did a wonderfull job at it.
It's a shame that Egosoft didn't want to go down that route (optional newtonian physics) since X2 already seems to cater for the hardcore space heads anyway.
Anyway, I think the game will grow on me IF I spend enough time on it, wether it will hold my atention long enough is something that remains to be seen I'm afraid.

But to get back on topic:

I think one of the problems of comparing X2 with Elite is the age you where when you played it and subsequently your impressabillity vs veteran "I've seen it all" cynicism

Edit: oops, wasn't finished.
I'd say that in grandeur Elite wins hands down, combine that with the fact that it was revolutionary at that time, multiply it with you "impressionability" at the age you played it and it's clear that for the veterans among us Elite can NEVER be toppled.
Not that that's a bad thing ofcourse.

xaotik · Post by **xaotik** » Tue, 16. Dec 03, 11:53

Stone-D wrote:X doesn't have a universe. X features a dark, zero-G anarchistic shopping mall in which you must crawl from gallery to gallery. You may get mugged at a gallery entrance. You can mug some guy on his way to the carpark and get the burger he just bought. Hell, if you're good you can steal his suit. Then sell it to the used-suit shop in the next gallery. Oh, but be careful of the gangs - the Khaak are really nasty, but watch out for Xenon too. If you run across any pirate stations, aka stalls selling pirated games, feel free to take them out along with their punters.

Thanks, that one cracked me up and is probably spot on to what conclusions I've been coming to with these games. :)
Also, note the mutable nature of it - it could of easily been a fantasy RPG. The space setting is clearly cosmetic.

egosoft.com

egosoft.com

"X2: The Threat" - Has Elite found it's match? [LO

"X2: The Threat" vs "Frontier: First Encounters"

"X2: The Threat" - Has Elite found it's match? [LO