I Feel the Need - The Need4Speed!

[Shara]

Sweet

I didn't get time to play both together this weekend - NFL Draft.

I am glad to hear they work together well. I'll have to load up the AI scripts asap.

I'll be releasing another version of my mod shortly, because there is one glitch (I overpowerd the Mass Driver).

[Burianek]

yeah, you gotta remember the firing rates are in tlaser.
mass driver fires over 3 times as often as a bhept, so if you want to compare hull damage take that into account.
Also, just an fyi, from digging through your types files, I can't remember perfectly but it looked like you switched turning rates for some of your M3s and M5s, making M3s have higher turning rates. Not positive, but worth a glance.
Great ideas!

[Burianek]

I am glad to hear they work together well. I'll have to load up the AI scripts asap.

Wait'll you see the difference fighting multiple opponents

Oh, the combat ai script only adjusts enemy speed at the point in time you fire on them (they recognize you as enemy/target) It does not adjust rudder setting, but some simple code additions could take care of that.

Problem is, if you made those code additions, and used the script w/o a mod that nerfs rudders you'd be flying against ridiculously rudder maxxed ships all the time, so I don't know if the script should adjust rudders or not.

Personally, I'm leaning toward the approach you abandoned of only having 3-4 rudder upgrades possible. I don't think there needs to be 500% variation in the rudder performance of an ai disco, that's just ridiculous imho. I guess I don't mind the fact that you have to start over to reinitialize all the ships.

[Shara]

yeah, you gotta remember the firing rates are in tlaser.
mass driver fires over 3 times as often as a bhept, so if you want to compare hull damage take that into account.
Also, just an fyi, from digging through your types files, I can't remember perfectly but it looked like you switched turning rates for some of your M3s and M5s, making M3s have higher turning rates. Not positive, but worth a glance.
Great ideas!

It is possible for an M3 to have a higher rudder than an M5. It depends on the ship in question.

I basically put everyone on a scale for max rudder capability: 24%-32%. The most maneuverable M3 has 32% rudder, and the most maneuverable M4 has 32% rudder, and same with the most maneuverable M5.

This means that the most maneuverable M3 (32%) will outmaneuver the least maneuverable M5 (26%). And this difference can be more apparent when you take into account rudder tunings.

To me, it is important to keep the rudders close together. The margin of difference between the most maneuverable ship and the least maneuverable ship should be small.

Your suggestion that I go back to limiting rudder tunings to 3-5... That is the logical way to solve this problem, which is why I did it that way the first time. But I ran into that problem where an existing AI ship would have 20 rudder tunings, and coupled with my mod would make it super-rudder... hard to kill.

BUT - I am thinking now: a better solution might be to simply write a script that you run to initialize all ships in the game that currently exist, and reset all their rudders to 3-5 tunings. This would put everyone under the cap, and every fighter would be balanced.

Is this type of script possible?

If it is, it solves the problem. Then I can go back and change ALL rudders on all fighters (and M6's) to only have between 3-5 tunings.

[Burianek]

Your suggestion that I go back to limiting rudder tunings to 3-5... That is the logical way to solve this problem, which is why I did it that way the first time. But I ran into that problem where an existing AI ship would have 20 rudder tunings, and coupled with my mod would make it super-rudder... hard to kill.

BUT - I am thinking now: a better solution might be to simply write a script that you run to initialize all ships in the game that currently exist, and reset all their rudders to 3-5 tunings. This would put everyone under the cap, and every fighter would be balanced.

Is this type of script possible?

Yes, it is. Would take a minute to run, and it will only run on ships in space, so it won't catch all ships, but it's possible. Could run it every hour or so, and odds are you'll get most ships while they're in space. Not the most elegant solution, but worth it if someone doesn't want to restart.

Or you could just start a new game. Factories and ships are 'created' according to your mod specifications at game start. That's why if you apply a mod mid game you'll have super-ships hanging about. Starting over while the mod is active solves this problem as all ships will be created according to the new rules.

The combat ai script alters engine tunings for a ship that it determines is under attack by the player. An elegant solution, only disadvantage is you can't scan the ship before you attack it to see what you're up against. Not that big a difference in their world, as engine tunings don't make that much of a difference. But as we both know, in the low rudder universe, it can make all the difference in the world.

[Shara]

The combat ai script alters engine tunings for a ship that it determines is under attack by the player. An elegant solution, only disadvantage is you can't scan the ship before you attack it to see what you're up against. Not that big a difference in their world, as engine tunings don't make that much of a difference. But as we both know, in the low rudder universe, it can make all the difference in the world.

Right - that it does.

One of the things I enjoyed about my mod after I started a new game was that rudder tunings mattered, and I was able to cap some ships with my M5, but many I could not, because they had better turning that I did. I finally managed to cap an M4, and then used it - same situation though. Some ships I could outmaneuver, and thus could capture or kill for money. Others I could not. It created a very cool element to the game, as I was contantly checking the rudder % of each new enemy ship I found to determine if it was something I should try and attack or not. I made the mistake of attacking an Orinoco once that had superior rudder to my M4 Buster. It pwned me.

Starting over isn't very appealing to most people, I would think. It isn't to me. I've already done it once and just now got to a fair point in my newest game, and I want to play, not start over. So I'll have to build a script to tackle this rudder problem.

I'll probably go back tomorrow (day off work) and rework all the rudder tunings back to my original model, and then try working on a script to fix existing ships in savegames. If it works correctly... wow. Would be really cool. Because I think limiting EVERY fighter to 3-5 rudder tunings is the best way to go, ultimately.

[darloth]

I havn't poked the modding language yet, but isn't there a way of going through every sector, and then every station, and all the ships landed as well?

i know it would take even longer, but being limited to just ships in space seems weird... has to be some way to access ships in space.

If not, is there some way to make every ship take off, run the patch-mod-thingy, and then land and go back to what they were doing?

[Constipated_Vigilante]

I was wondering, would this mod work with the TuningMKI script? That's a nice little script that gives your ship an "afterburner" at the cost of energy cells. The problem is, I'm not sure if this would work with your altered speeds.

[Shara]

I am not sure how the Tuning script works, but my guess is that it temporarily adds engine tunings to your ship to increase speed.

If that is the case, it would work with my mod.

I'll be releasing version 3 of this mod possibly this weekend. I want to get it set in stone.

[QuantaCat]

I still dont get the decisions on some ships. For example the difference between a perseus and a dragon: the perseus is FASTER?! I thought you upped all speed in relation?

And the pegasus you tuned DOWN? it only does 500 now, it used to do 1000. huh? I mean, the pegasus doesnt have any other means other than flying really fast. (I use it as a messenger boy myself.)

[Shara]

I still dont get the decisions on some ships. For example the difference between a perseus and a dragon: the perseus is FASTER?! I thought you upped all speed in relation?

In relation to ships of the same class. The Perseus is an M3, the Dragon is an M6.

I balanced the ships so that in general the speeds work out like this:

M5 > M4 > M3 > M6

This is strictly a balancing issue, and it is how I felt the game should have been balanced to begin with. When you start jacking up speed, there has to be some relativity involved to keep things playable.

And the pegasus you tuned DOWN? it only does 500 now, it used to do 1000. huh? I mean, the pegasus doesnt have any other means other than flying really fast. (I use it as a messenger boy myself.)

The Pegasus was unbalanced at 1000. It created a disadvantage for other M5's to try and fight it.

The whole idea of this mod was to speed up the fighters and balance them in relation to each other so that they presented a fair fighting situation. After installing the mod, theoretically, you should be able to hop into any M5 and fight other M5's in a balanced manner.

I'd change the Pegasus back to 1000, but if I did that, I'd remove it's capabilities to hold weapons, so that it only becomes a courier ship. Otherwise, it's unbalanced.

The whole purpose of the mod, as I explain in the ReadMe, is to make the combat experience more like that of X-wing vs Tie-Fighter, where fighter combat feels thrilling, fast, exciting, and balanced. All of the ships in that game have speeds that are fairly close to the other ships. There is no great disparity among ships like there is between a Teladi Falcon (139) and a Paranid Pegasus (1000).

Those disparities in speed unbalane the gameplay and make for uninteresting combat. Balancing the speeds, making them closer together, while increasing them at the same time (and decreasing turn radius) makes combat better.

I have yet to try my mod with the AI mod, but I've heard it kicks ass...

[QuantaCat]

Yes but I think the point of the pegasus is that its the fastest thing alive, but quite crap in almost everything else. Aside from shields, where its "normal M5" I havent found any use for any M5s aside of cannon fodder, or quick courier ships. With the exception of the Harrier, which is a fine cheap transport.

And about the heavy fighters being faster than the corvettes: this shouldnt be. Corvettes, in the Star Wars universe, are transport ships. In X2, they are described as having a purely defensive role. So they need to be able to catch up with the fleet. In comparison to Heavy Fighters, who need to be slow, but deliver loads of damage. Actually, Heavy Fighters are something like the B-Wing in X-wing Vs Tie Fighter. (or even the Y-Wing)

This, I dont find like X-Wing Vs Tie Fighter at all, the rest Im sure its fine (I havent tried though, I sortof couldnt use my pegasus after activating this mod :D)

Heck, on a purely Game To Game comparison, in XwVTf, the M6s are more like the strike/assault craft that docked to some mission critical craft that needed to be captured. And they were FAST!

Oh and please dont take this as a "omg ur mod sux OLOLoplOLoLOl", but a constructive criticism which explains why I find some decisions strange. It's a very good idea, as a whole.

[Shara]

Yes but I think the point of the pegasus is that its the fastest thing alive, but quite crap in almost everything else. Aside from shields, where its "normal M5" I havent found any use for any M5s aside of cannon fodder, or quick courier ships. With the exception of the Harrier, which is a fine cheap transport.

And about the heavy fighters being faster than the corvettes: this shouldnt be. Corvettes, in the Star Wars universe, are transport ships. In X2, they are described as having a purely defensive role. So they need to be able to catch up with the fleet. In comparison to Heavy Fighters, who need to be slow, but deliver loads of damage. Actually, Heavy Fighters are something like the B-Wing in X-wing Vs Tie Fighter. (or even the Y-Wing)

This, I dont find like X-Wing Vs Tie Fighter at all, the rest Im sure its fine (I havent tried though, I sortof couldnt use my pegasus after activating this mod )

Heck, on a purely Game To Game comparison, in XwVTf, the M6s are more like the strike/assault craft that docked to some mission critical craft that needed to be captured. And they were FAST!

Oh and please dont take this as a "omg ur mod sux OLOLoplOLoLOl", but a constructive criticism which explains why I find some decisions strange. It's a very good idea, as a whole.

You should probably read the ReadMe.txt file that comes with my mod, it would make more sense to you.

Yes but I think the point of the pegasus is that its the fastest thing alive, but quite crap in almost everything else. Aside from shields, where its "normal M5" I havent found any use for any M5s aside of cannon fodder, or quick courier ships. With the exception of the Harrier, which is a fine cheap transport.

As I stated in my mod files, I treat the M5 like a standard Tie-Fighter (which, if you recall correctly, was unshielded, and basically served as "cannon fodder" for the Empire). In order to balance all of the M5's, the Pegasus had to be slowed down. Period.

And about the heavy fighters being faster than the corvettes: this shouldnt be. Corvettes, in the Star Wars universe, are transport ships.

Again, you should have read the ReadMe.txt file, as I explained this.

There is really no comparison between the corvettes of Star Wars and the Corvettes of X2. They aren't the same thing. Because they have the same name does not make them equal.

I consider the M6's in X2 to be much more akin to the Millenium Falcon - a freighter that was modified to perform like a large fighter. This is essentially how M6's in X2 should perform, in my opinion. If you look at the Teladi Osprey, or even better, the Argon Centaur, with its wto foward cannons and top and bottom turrents, this is exactly the same configuration as the Millenium Falcon...


Hence, this is why I modified their speeds and maneuverability to compensate. I wanted the M6's to fly like the Millenium Falcon, to perform like that ship, because that is how I see their role. I also felt it added quite a bit more reward to the game, in terms of linear progression of ships. As X2 stands, default config, the M6 really isn't anything to write home about. It's slower, less agile, more of a pain to dock and buy weapons/ammo/missiles for, and is generally not a step-up from something like a Nova.

All of this is explained in the ReadMe...

Oh and please dont take this as a "omg ur mod sux OLOLoplOLoLOl", but a constructive criticism which explains why I find some decisions strange. It's a very good idea, as a whole.

I take it mainly as someone who didn't read my ReadMe, and so they don't understand my decisions.

I was very clear (and lengthy) in my explanation in the ReadMe file, because I wanted people to understand why I made the changes I made. Every single adjustment I made was carefully considered to determine how it would impact the game. I own XvT (as well as X-wing Alliance, X-Wing and Tie-Fighter) and I play it regularly, and the sensation I get flying in combat in those games does not match X2.

I know precisely why this is, and I adjusted the game to compensate.

The mod isn't perfect because of engine and rudder tunings, which completely fubar the whole deal. I have figured out how to minimize their affects, and will release a 3rd version of this mod, with an initialization script, to help fix the problem.

If you didn't enjoy XvT, I would encourage you to uninstall this mod. This mod does more than just speed ships up - it alters fundamental things so that the combat experience more closely emulates that of XvT. If that isnt' what you're looking for, uninstall.

I don't mind constructive criticism, it helps make mods better. But your comments don't fall under the category of constructive criticism - they fall under the category of misinformed disagreement. Your bashing my mod when you don't even understand WHY it is made to function the way it is made.

Read the ReadMe, understand the decisions, then we can talk about what works and what doesn't.

[strat]

I loved this mod in 1.3 and as I've not played for a while(waiting for 1.4) I have just re-downloaded it. have not installed yet and so have not read the read me so please slam me for asking this if the readme does say, is this compatible with 1.4.
Is this the final version and if so get it signed.

Thanks

Strat...

[strat]

Hmmm, is there an update, you mentioned that you were working on version 3 but I DLed v1.1 from the first post and cannot find any other link after looking through this thread a second time.
Also the readme does not mention compatabily with version 1.4 of X2.
feeling depressed now.

Strat...

[Burianek]

I can try to answer for him.
This mod will not be truly compatible with 1.4, but it will still work.
The specific things that will be different are that TS and TPs will not have their new performance data. Also 1.4 made a few changes to lasertowers and these won't be reflected.
If you install this mod, you'll be using all of the old 1.3 data for ship characteristics in addition to what has been changed by the mod.
It's very possible though that he's altered every single ship's data in this mod however, including TS and TP data. So in this case, the mod would be discarding the 1.4 changes anyway, so you won't notice a difference.
Does that answer your question?
I don't feel like I explained that very clearly.
This mod will make ship characteristics the same as they behaved in version 1.3.

[jduato]

Now I am really doubtful about how to play this game. I played the entire plot twice (in V1.2 and V1.4) and finally decided to restart again after having 2 billions in my account, 48 factories, 11 destroyers, a carrier, etc, etc. There was no challenge!

I was looking for challenges. I tried things like killing a Xenon K with different ships, and I managed to do so with the Perseus (very easy), the Dragon (not so easy), the Mamba (slow and very challenging), Khaak M3 (didn't succeed because of energy low), and even the Bayamon (I had to reload several times but I cleaned a sector with 5 Ks, a Xenon station and several Ms and Ns). I tried different ships in Xenon and Khaak sectors as well as wingmen, etc. I also used to take assasination missions with an M3, killing a destroyer and killing/capturing 4 corvettes. Not too much fun.

So, I restarted again in X-treme mode using Burianek's Laser's rebalance mod. It is great and makes the combat more interesting. However, X-treme mode does not seem to make things more difficult. Just a slower start since you are only given a Disco without any upgrade and just 100 credits.

Now, I have seen the Need4Speed mod. I would like to try it out but I am afraid that some AI ships already contain many rudder upgrades. So, if I save the game with that mod on, I may end up in trouble. Also, despite the explanations in the readme file, I do not like the idea of M3s being faster than M6s because it may endanger OOS defense nor having a slow Pegasus because it was great for exploring the universe. Also, I know that both mods (Shara's and Burianek's) are not compatible. I like the higher speed delivered by Shara's script and I like the laser rebalance delivered by Burianek's script (making PPCs really useful, making hulls last for longer, etc). Are any of you planning on delivering a combined mod compatible with the changes in troduced in V1.4 or should I end up writing my own mod (by combining the best of your changes)?

Thanks for your great work to both of you!

[ElBourico]

Hi guys,

Like the mod, I am an Xwing vs Tie fighter fan I just love X2 but I think it may need a little dogfighting upgrade. No games has involved me for such a long time. I'm still testing your mod and I wonder if there's a way to upgrade your all your ships. Cuz my wingmen could'nt follow me anymore and when I'm auto-piloting back to my Tl, My Nova is going at the old speed. Any clue?

[strat]

Thanks Burianek, does anybody know if Shara is still here and active. cannot say I've seen him/her post for a while.

Jduato, if you do this please do not keep it to yourself, share the end product with the comunity, I would love to be able to do this myself but simply do not have the time to learn.

Strat...

[Burianek]

I like the higher speed delivered by Shara's script and I like the laser rebalance delivered by Burianek's script (making PPCs really useful, making hulls last for longer, etc). Are any of you planning on delivering a combined mod compatible with the changes in troduced in V1.4 or should I end up writing my own mod (by combining the best of your changes)

I wrote one for 1.3, not using shara's values but my own. I increased speeds and decreased rudder, made it feel more like dogfighting in aircraft, was pretty cool. Loved it in 1.3. Tried it with 1.4, but the new AI has been designed around ego's flight characteristics. My mod sucked the big one in 1.4, so I decided when patching it up, to take out all the flight characteristics changes and just keep the laser/economy stuff.
If you mess with the flight data, you may do it to the detriment of the AI competence, but knock yourself out